Anything Clearly Better Than The Nautilus/Bowflex Revolution?

[theblackkeys]

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So far it seems like everyone here is kind of inexperienced about this stuff thinking that a 45 minute workout on a $100 machine is better than a 40 minute workout on a $3000 machine. Who taught you to think this way?

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pretty sure he's trolling us.

[shemp]

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You aren't a sucker because those machines are expensive-- you are a sucker because you are slurping up a marketing campaign designed for suckers and you think you understand the opposition, but you don't.

I could go on, but you apparently are gifted with such superior analytic abilities that whatever I think is based on a faulty construct (even if I were right) or a lack of appreciation of your fitness level/needs.


So good luck with your home gym. I'm sure one of those machines could be part of an excellent home fitness routine and I hope you are happy with it as an accessory, too.

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Where did all that come from? I just want to know which machine that takes up about fifty square feet looks and works the best in a second floor room.


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I was reacting to:

"Please stop trying to save me money."

"So far it seems like everyone here is kind of inexperienced about this stuff thinking [X and Y]. Who taught you to think this way?"

I considered it a mis-diagnosis of the response you obtained generally, and from me, specifically.

To get back on what is apparently the correct track: I think ultimately you can trust your own opinion of what looks the best, but running it by an interior decorator couldn't hurt. I have no idea which one works the best, but it seems likely that the value is marginal enough that utility shouldn't be the governing factor (aesthetics or some kind of acquired/associated status should). As I said, good luck and good health.

[Blarg]

The answer you got was the best one but you're rejecting it. Screw machines.

They do not make you anywhere near as strong as weights or develop you functionally as well. Reliance on stabilizer muscles, from the muscles around your ribcage to your abs and obliques and lower back, and including your legs, is what teaches you to lift properly and gives you strength that's applicable in the real world, including sports. When you give that up, you give up a LOT, and what people are doing is warning you that you probably are undervaluing that by a country mile.

Don't assume that everyone with a different point of view than your own is always dumber than you are or flat out ignorant. In this instance especially, you would do well not to jump to that favorite conclusion. You really do yourself a noticeable disservice by using machines.

But if that's what you want to do, so be it and more power to you. Some of us were just trying to help.

[cbloom]

David, if you just want something that looks cool and is useless for fitness, may I make some alternative suggestions that also cost around $5000 ?

1. Stuffed animals "



2. Multi-mon setup :



3. DDR machine (great for fitness too) :



4. Real doll (also a good workout) :

[David Sklansky]

Why are you bringing up weights vs machines when I am asking for a comparison of machines? But as long as you did bring up the subject, what about the fact that free weights don't stress you to the max through the total range of motion while some machines do?

[Wynton]

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Why are you bringing up weights vs machines when I am asking for a comparison of machines? But as long as you did bring up the subject, what about the fact that free weights don't stress you to the max through the total range of motion while some machines do?

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[bwana devil]

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Why are you bringing up weights vs machines when I am asking for a comparison of machines?

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david, to draw a comparison, it may be like someone coming to you and asking what the best ken warren poker book is and you tell them they are all bad. the person responds "but which one is the best? i really want one."

[theblackkeys]

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Why are you bringing up weights vs machines when I am asking for a comparison of machines? But as long as you did bring up the subject, what about the fact that free weights don't stress you to the max through the total range of motion while some machines do?

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David, I think I understand where you're coming from. When you do a rep of squats or bench press, for instance, there is some portion of the lift that is relatively easy, usually the top portion of the lift. To counter this, you can drape chains over the ends of the barbell so that when you lower the weight it gets lighter, and when you raise it it gets heavier. This provides a more uniform amount of effort required to move the bar throughout the entire motion.

Now on to the subject of machines. While the resistance throughout the range of motion of a particular machine exercise may be pretty constant or even get more difficult, it is the actual movements themselves that are far inferior. Machines force you to work in their line of motion, not the body's natural line of motion. They also are often single joint exercises. Leg exercises on machines are also wayyyyyy wayyy inferior. There is nothing better than a barbell squat. PERIOD. You load the bar on your back, and everything underneath that is working to move that weight up. Furthermore, you can't do deadlifts with machines either. Do heavy deadlifts and come back and tell me that free weights don't stress you to the max.

[Blarg]

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Why are you bringing up weights vs machines when I am asking for a comparison of machines? But as long as you did bring up the subject, what about the fact that free weights don't stress you to the max through the total range of motion while some machines do?

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I brought it up because a lot of the feedback here was trying to alert you that you weren't on the best track in the first place. We were trying to change the subject because we thought it would be more helpful to steer you the right way than help you choose the lesser of two evils. You didn't seem to understand why that was, and we wanted you to understand that and consider alternatives. Perhaps being dead-set on getting one machine versus another is looking at your fitness needs in a way that won't get you maximum value, and I don't mean monetarily.

Regarding the utility of free weights and range of motion, it is machines that limit you, not free weights. You can get whatever range of motion you like with free weights, vastly more variety, and there are ways to make sure that you get fully challenged through the entire range of motions with free weights, too.

If you go to bodybuilding.com, and I think on t-nation.com too, you will find articles on using chains and bands. Bands have already been mentioned here. What they can do is keep it so that the end of a movement when lifting free weights, which is often fairly easy as most of the work is already done, remains hard.

With chains, you pile them on the floor on either side of the bar and tie one end to each end of a bar. As the bar goes up, you lift more and more chain. This adds weight as you go through the full range of the motion, and forces you to lift just as explosively at the end of, say, a bench press as at the beginning. Pile on however much chain you want, and it's easy to increment. You can do the same sort of thing with resistance bands. They actually get harder to stretch the more you stretch them, so as your bench press or military press or whatever goes up, the bands keep the movement hard throughout. Both methods are extremely easy to set up, versatile, and cheap, and work like gangbusters.

Importantly though, that's far from the whole story of why free weights are so good. The necessity to stabilize your weight when lifting free weights contributes to properly handling your body and utilizing tension and coordination effectively. Those things are needed for strength, and for athletic performance in general, practiced coordination of your body, from its base at the legs up, is extremely important. It's where the power in batting and boxing and tennis and even lifting things up around the house comes from. Machine-built muscles crafted in isolation can't be applied very well in real life, because the coordination to do so has not been discovered, much less drilled.

Additionally, there are frequent complaints with many machines about uneven tension as well. Those machines are gorgeous, and they do offer some value, but the value you give up is also a very important consideration. There are neither competive bodybuilders nor competitive strength athletes who base their training on machines; they are just an inferior solution.

Which is not to say you won't enjoy one and enjoy using one. But people are trying to discourage you from giving up too much to gain too little, and it really has nothing to do with price.

[shemp]

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[W]hat about the fact that free weights don't stress you to the max through the total range of motion while some machines do?

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While I have no doubt that you have thought about this and therefore must be correct, I'm still curious: Did you first hear this claim from a sales person or read it on a brochure?

edit: BTW, I'm not questioning the truth or falsity or relevance. I just want to know where you first heard it.