AA with no spade

[Captain R]

Laggy player open-raises UTG. Mostly straightforward weak-tight solid MP cold-calls.
I 3-bet in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB super-loose fish calls (he will never fold a blind, no matter what)
Everyone calls.

Flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I check, BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls with his big spade or two overs or pocket pair, I check-raise...

What do you think?

I think the question here is whether to bet or check-raise. I think the flop is getting bet a huge amount of time, at least by a big spade. I'm trying to get fish out of the pot with his small pair, gutshot, small spade, whatever...

I also check to basically "get position" on the flop and see the action before raising/3-betting/folding.

[RudeboyOi]

i bet this flop
hoping to get a raise from UTG
if MP coldcalls id just call
and donk on a good turn

if BB calls my flop bet
and UTG raises and MP folds
then id 3bet trying to get BB out

[drbk2]

I don't like it. I think you are putting yourself in a position to put in a lot of bets on a pretty bad flop for your hand. If you lead you are putting in one bet or maybe 2, while by check raising you are putting 2 or maybe 3 with not such a great pot equity.

[n.s.]

I like just betting out and hoping that LAG raises. The problem with your plan is that the guy who you'd most like to check-raise (MP) is weak-tight and will check through often. Trying to get BB to fold a spade is nearly useless (a super-loose fish will call 2 cold here with most hands that he'd call one with), but if you bet and UTG raises, then MP might fold a lot of hands that you'd like him to fold, hands like a straight draw or Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X.

[stud7champ]

Bet, no guarantee theat anyone is going to raise so you could be giving away a free card if you try to check raise.

[Captain R]

Well, I guess I caught something out of the corner of my eye, because I felt strongly UTG was going to bet. Maybe something subliminal or whatever. To back it up logically, I think he bets any pair or any broadway [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

If I lead out and bet, there is no way fish in BB folds anything which was one of my main goals.

I also think it's unlikely I'm getting raised by anything other than a flush, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a set. If I check-raise, it's hard for anything to raise me without the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], because the way I played it makes it look like I flopped at least a set or the nut flush. Who the heck 3-bets preflop and then check-raises an all-spade flush?

Just more fuel for the fire...

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess I caught something out of the corner of my eye, because I felt strongly UTG was going to bet. Maybe something subliminal or whatever. To back it up logically, I think he bets any pair or any broadway [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

If I lead out and bet, there is no way fish in BB folds anything which was one of my main goals.

I also think it's unlikely I'm getting raised by anything other than a flush, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or a set. If I check-raise, it's hard for anything to raise me without the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], because the way I played it makes it look like I flopped at least a set or the nut flush. Who the heck 3-bets preflop and then check-raises an all-spade flush?

Just more fuel for the fire...

[/ QUOTE ]

But you do want the fish to fold. i think you want *someone* to fold something. I mean even make 89o fold is good for you. As it stands you've already got 9 cards in the deck that are going to kill this hand for you. Try and get rid of the others and keep yourself heads up against the spade draw. Imho that's your best percentage chance of taking down this pot. So many times I've played a hand like this. Turn comes off a blank, River is a red J, and I end up losing to the fish on the end with J9o who called all the way without nothing. As it stands if you can't reduce the field, you're going to have a hard time winning.

[Captain R]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I lead out and bet, there is no way fish in BB folds anything which was one of my main goals.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you do want the fish to fold. i think you want *someone* to fold something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I think my phrasing was poor. My goal was to get the fish to fold obviously, not keep him in this pot... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess I caught something out of the corner of my eye, because I felt strongly UTG was going to bet. Maybe something subliminal or whatever. To back it up logically, I think he bets any pair or any broadway [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I still bet out and hope that he raises with whatever he was planning on betting.

[ QUOTE ]
If I lead out and bet, there is no way fish in BB folds anything which was one of my main goals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you are fixated and getting the fish to fold instead of MP - either of them is about as likely to have a spade, but the fish is going to cold-call a lot more with his (he's a fish, after all). Check-raising UTG traps MP into calling when you could probably get him to fold, but getting the fish out is probably a lost cause (unless he really has nothing).

[ssmallz]

The idea of a c/r isn't bad at all. The way it was executed is. Once you decide to c/r, you've gotta realize that you're doing it to get people to fold, not to build a pot. Your hand, while best now, probably won't be by the river so why do you want to put in a ton of bets on the flop when the drawing hands have the most equity? If MP bets, I like the c/r b/c you might be able to fold some small spades that may call for just one bet and MP might have a hand that you beat w/out a spade. As played, call the bet and donk a safe turn.

Ideal play - bet b/c you want to eliminate others as well as for value. You also don't want to build this pot untill the turn/river b/c your equity isn't too good.

On your read that UTG will bet for you - pretty irrelevant. You don't have huge equity here so there's no point in trying to c/r the field or try to eliminate the one guy who will call 2 cold.