NL$200| A few line checks

Acevader · #1 10-16-2007, 02:44 PM

I'm going to try something a little different today. Normally after a session I try to pluck out the big losing hands and see if I made a mistake or could have played them better. This usually leads to a 2+2 post and with some luck I take something from the resultant thread. But poker is much more than just the pots we lose. It's the small pots, the medium pots and the pots we win - did we maximize value, minimize loses, position our opponent(s) where we want them, etc. For that reason I'm going to start posting a more varied range of hands for comment. Please bare in mind I'm trying my best to not be FGators (no offense man) - I want to learn power poker:

Hand 1

Still new to the table and villains stats are meaningless but he seems fairly tight.

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button ($474.80)
SB ($255.15)
BB ($265.23)
UTG ($211.62)
Hero ($200)
CO ($210.41)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, 3 folds.

Flop: ($17) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($17) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($17) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero?

Hand 2

This is villains first hand at the table; standard line with 1010 or do you have a better approach? Fold Preflop? Just call flop?

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

BB ($200)
UTG ($615.05)
MP ($233.05)
CO ($210)
Hero ($184.44)
SB ($154.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, BB raises to $25, Hero calls $18.

Flop: ($51) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $37, Hero raises to $175, BB calls $138.

Turn: ($401) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
.

River: ($401) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $401

Hand 3

Villain is 23/7/weak based on just 30 hands. Fold? Call? Value-shove? Optimal to this point?

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($93.75)
BB ($198.25)
UTG ($200)
MP ($241.35)
Hero ($267.55)
Button ($50.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, BB calls $5, UTG folds.

Flop: ($17) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $14, BB calls $14.

Turn: ($45) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $38, BB calls $38.

River: ($121) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $60, Hero?

Hand 4

Villain in this hand has KJ - no stats on him. I tell you this because it's clear against his actual hand I could have stacked him by betting more on the turn thus setting up a river shove. I want to know if the smaller bet is merited against his range on the turn. I figured him to have less than top-pair often (2nd pair or draw usually).

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($113.95)
BB ($172)
UTG ($235.70)
MP ($185.05)
Hero ($244.25)
Button ($138.85)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $7, Button calls $7, 2 folds.

Flop: ($17) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $13, Button calls $13.

Turn: ($43) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $25, Button calls $25.

River: ($93) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $50, Button calls $50.

Final Pot: $193

Hand 5

This is the biggy for me: 3-bet pots! I'm hopeless at winning 3-bet pots unless I hit or have the goods or get lucky with a c-bet. Thoughts on this line? Villain is 19/13/2.5 (90)

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

MP ($40)
CO ($194)
Button ($202.65)
SB ($282)
Hero ($210.80)
UTG ($198.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB raises to $7, Hero raises to $21, SB calls $14.

Flop: ($42) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($42) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $25, Hero raises to $85

Hand 6

No worthwhile stats on villain (new to the site in case you are wondering on lack of stats) but I believe he has a draw on this flop often. Turn play?

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

CO ($70.30)
Button ($200)
SB ($198)
BB ($163.75)
Hero ($244.30)
MP ($358.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $7, MP calls $7, CO calls $7, 2 folds.

Flop: ($24) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $15, MP folds, CO calls $15.

Turn: ($54) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero?

Hand 7

Villain is 19/13/2 (40). Who c-bets this flop and if so what is your plan. Who likes my line?

Cryptologic Network No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($204.25)
BB ($116.20)
UTG ($199.40)
MP ($36.45)
CO ($69)
Button ($171.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, UTG calls $14.

Flop: ($42) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $38, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $80

I realize it's a lot - feel free to pick and chose hands you wish to respond to. Thanks.

Nick Royale · #2 10-16-2007, 04:19 PM

1. Bet the flop. If he calls 2nd barrel J+. Once you've checked the flop just c/f turn and river too.

2. This is fine. Calling and shutting down if he keeps the aggression on the turn might be better vs a random 200nl-player.

3. Push.

4. You must set up for a riv shove, he only has 70bb damnit.

5. Your line is weird. C-bet the flop. If you're going to check the flop, then give it up on the turn.

6. Why do you think he has a draw? Check/fold turn. You have the sucker end of a straight draw on a 2 flush board. The turn didn't change things much so I don't think you have much fe, your implied odds sucks and might even be negative.

7. I call preflop most often. I bet the flop and shut down.

From what I can judge from these hands you seem like a pretty weak player. You need to c-bet more often and v-bet your good hands stronger. Not stacking villain in hand 4 is really bad. Other than that the worst hand is hand 5, this line makes no sense at all.

Arp220 · #3 10-16-2007, 06:00 PM

I"ll give it a go - here's what I would do:

1 - bet flop for 12. As played c/f river

2 - cbet flop here too. Fold to a raise given he raised you preflop (my take would be that a reraise either means a higher pair, or a slightly lower pair that just became a set).

3 - Depending on my mood I'd either call (if I'd seen him play this way with small pairs) or shove.

4 - fine

5 - Not sure I'd raise with AQo preflop - probably just call his bet and see what happens on the flop. I'd probably fire in 30 on the flop for fun after his check.

6. I'd fold this preflop UTG. As played I'd PSB on flop, c/f turn if called.

7. I cbet that flop, And run away if I meet any resistance.

Lucky · #4 10-16-2007, 06:03 PM

hand 1: bet flop or turn

hand 2: call flop

Nick Royale · #5 10-16-2007, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2 - cbet flop here too. Fold to a raise given he raised you preflop (my take would be that a reraise either means a higher pair, or a slightly lower pair that just became a set).

[/ QUOTE ]
Misread I think.

Arp220 · #6 10-16-2007, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 - cbet flop here too. Fold to a raise given he raised you preflop (my take would be that a reraise either means a higher pair, or a slightly lower pair that just became a set).

[/ QUOTE ]
Misread I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops was reading too fast...

Michaelson · #7 10-16-2007, 11:35 PM

Hand 1: Why no c-bet? Especially if someone's new to the table test him out. If he raises you keep an eye on him, but most of the time he'll fold. Don't call the river.

Hand 2: yes all round.

Hand 3: Instant shove, if you lose it's a cooler. The river changed nothing, it looks like a block bet.

Hand 4: Yeah, bet more on the turn and river. I understand keeping the bet amounts smallish to try to entice him to come along, but you want to milk him for as much as possible and hopefully take his stack. The T could be a great card for you. Shove river.

Hand 5: Just c-bet. You're in position in a 3-bet pot in BvB. your line's not really repping anything. If he calls you can take a free card, if he raises all in gg him, you'll get him when you have AA.

Hand 6: crappy turn for you, I'd check fold seeing as you basically now have undercards + a gutshot with a flush draw on the board.

Hand 7: If I check here, it's to call him down. I probably just c-bet though and fold to resistance. The flop's not terrible for you by any stretch, c/f is way too weak IMO. You have to remember that when you bet/fold, although it sucks for that hand, it means that when you hold AA you're more likely to get paid off. It's a fine line, and you should avoid reckless spewing if at all possible, but you also have to have an advertising budget.

Acevader · #8 10-17-2007, 02:44 AM

Thanks guys [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Results

Hand 1: I didn't cbet this because I'd been recently loose on the table and had been c-betting a lot. I figured I wasn't going to be believed on this board. I called villains river bet to expose QJ and take the pot. Whilst I gave out a weak line villains river bet also made no sense. If he had a PP or picked up a pair I feel he has to bet at some point before the river and if he didn't bet then what value is there in betting the river now? Similarly if he had ace high he need only show it down now as there is clearly no need to bet. This action led me to believe he either made a mega slowplay or had less than nothing.

Hand 2: I see this as standard, if you call a 3-bet with 1010-JJ you have to be willing to stack off on a low board. Villain called the AI with AK and didn't improve.

Hand 3: I pushed he folded. I figured there was still value to be had from lower-kicker jacks.

Hand 4: You all know what happened.

Hand 5: This is the problem for me. I c-bet this and have people float me or shove on me a lot. This forces me to continuously leave considerable amounts of money on the table with ace-high. So, in this instance I check to induce a situation where I can make the same move on villain and you all say its dead wrong. This is why I keep saying that aggro poker is like some secret club where you guys won't elaborate on what is required? I absolutely assure you when I cbet these flops villains play back light knowing I'll fold (and no I don't have AA-QQ often enough to compensate). To counter this I stop c-betting and take more tricky and aggressive lines and get flamed?! Like seriously, what am I supposed to do?? I would say given the recent flow at this table if I c-bet that flop I'm raised or called 75%+. I also bet you any money if I c-bet, he raises and I felt AQ you'd all say its a spew.

Hand 6: Guess I should have folded turn but I pushed because I was confident villain was drawing on the flop and would now fold. He had 10J for a gutshot + overs, called and held.

Hand 7: A check-fold is very rare for me here but looking at it, what do I beat? Villain is fairly tight and raised from UTG. I've 3-bet him and we've taken a flop of K88. What cards are definitely in his range:

1010+, AK - I tie one and am crushed by the rest.

possibly in his range:

AQ, 99 - I crush one and am well ahead of the other. If 88 is in his range I'm clearly dead.

Does he call preflop with <77 or KQ, KJ, J10?? Probably not but if he did he's still ahead with most of that speculative range.

In short, what can I beat? Hardly anything and there is no guarantee that by betting I'll get villain to fold JJ or QQ. In fact, its very unlikely I would. I just saw no reason at all to put more money in this pot when the vast majority of villains range destroys me.

Michaelson · #9 10-17-2007, 03:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5: This is the problem for me. I c-bet this and have people float me or shove on me a lot. This forces me to continuously leave considerable amounts of money on the table with ace-high. So, in this instance I check to induce a situation where I can make the same move on villain and you all say its dead wrong. This is why I keep saying that aggro poker is like some secret club where you guys won't elaborate on what is required? I absolutely assure you when I cbet these flops villains play back light knowing I'll fold (and no I don't have AA-QQ often enough to compensate). To counter this I stop c-betting and take more tricky and aggressive lines and get flamed?! Like seriously, what am I supposed to do?? I would say given the recent flow at this table if I c-bet that flop I'm raised or called 75%+. I also bet you any money if I c-bet, he raises and I felt AQ you'd all say its a spew.

[/ QUOTE ]
the trick isn't to take the 'trickiest' line, it's to have a lot of lines at your disposal and chose the most appropriate one. If villain pushes on you here what are you doing? You likely have 6 outs, you're probably ahead some of the time, and the pot's big. It actually wouldn't be too far from a call, I imagine, but if you do then you've orchestrated a situation in which you put all your money in on the turn. If you fold, you've put half your stack in and then given up on a big pot that you probably have decent equity in.

You 3-bet the small blind, were called, and missed the flop. It's not a great situation. The biggest things in your favour are that you are in position and have the initiative, and you make the most of those factors by c-betting IMO. I very much doubt that you will be shoved on 75% of the time, as well.
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 7: A check-fold is very rare for me here but looking at it, what do I beat? Villain is fairly tight and raised from UTG. I've 3-bet him and we've taken a flop of K88. What cards are definitely in his range:

1010+, AK - I tie one and am crushed by the rest.

possibly in his range:

AQ, 99 - I crush one and am well ahead of the other. If 88 is in his range I'm clearly dead.

Does he call preflop with <77 or KQ, KJ, J10?? Probably not but if he did he's still ahead with most of that speculative range.

In short, what can I beat? Hardly anything and there is no guarantee that by betting I'll get villain to fold JJ or QQ. In fact, its very unlikely I would. I just saw no reason at all to put more money in this pot when the vast majority of villains range destroys me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right on this.

Acevader · #10 10-17-2007, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You 3-bet the small blind, were called, and missed the flop. It's not a great situation. The biggest things in your favour are that you are in position and have the initiative, and you make the most of those factors by c-betting IMO. I very much doubt that you will be shoved on 75% of the time, as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd think! I keep having this debate with my poker buddy who plays NL$200 on absolute. He says 3-bet c-bets are highly successful almost irrespective of the board but I really haven't found that to be the case on Full Tilt in the last 50k hands. I've been witnessing a change whereby a lot of players are floating on 3-bet flops for weakness or pushing light. I know I sound like a whiny little b1tch but you just wouldn't believe how little respect my c-bets have been getting in 3-bet pots and it's not like I'm a heavy 3-bettor either.