starting to question myself...

[MyJunkIsYou]

I don't know if I have an edge anymore. For the past 2 years I've worked my way up from 1-2 to 10-20 and am a 1.5 bb winner over something like 500k hands. This is full ring.

I've been playing more and more short-handed until finally the past few months I started exclusively playing short handed. I'm talking usually tables of 3 to 6 players, usually something like 4 or 5.

I want to be honest with myself: I don't know if I'm really a winner in these games. Needless to say I started off quite well, but now I'm down quite a bit over about 40k hands....something to the tune of 200 bb. I know this could just be variance, but for the first time in what seems like years, I'm not able to confidently evaluate whether my decisions at the table are correct or not. I want to tame the beast that is short-handed hold em because I see and understand the potential for greater profit than full-ring but...I've loosened up, as logic would dictate, but I wonder if I've done so too much. Looking at my pokertracker stats, all of the hands like K-6 os and worse, have cost me a lot of money. But my blinds get attacked so much, I find it hard to believe I should be folding all those hands.

I don't really know what I'm looking for here with this post - maybe anyone who's gone through a similar experience in making the adjustment from full-ring to short-handed. I've read HPFAP and all the books like that countless times; I was aware of the danger of being too tight and too nitty going into this - so I became sort of a LAG, and now I'm wondering if I've done so without good enough post-flop instincts or something...I'm paying off with ace high on dry boards all the time, I'm getting check-raised like crazy on the turn. I could really use some advice in figuring this out. And before anyone says it, no I won't just keep playing full-ring because A) I find it boring now B) I have the personality where I'm determined to conquer something when I set out for it. I'm just looking for help on how to achieve that.

Is it just a matter of comparing my stats to that of winning players in these games and seeing where I'm off? Is it just a matter of developing better hand-reading skills in order not to get run over? Anyway, any insight people would be willing to offer would be really appreciated. Losing sucks.

[justin]

Not to personally attack you but what is this poker vacuum that everyone is living in lately. 200 bets is laughable as well as 40k hands. I am not saying your a winner at the game your not even providing a stats post more like a BBV post but dont be discouraged over a tiny downswing. However if 200 BB is frustrating to you short handed probably isnt the game your meant to play cause it can got whole lot worse.

[TheWunderkind]

i was a looser over 100K hands at 1/2-3/6 and no im taking shots at 10/20 15/30..what i want to say is :

1. 40K hands is like nothing

2. you played 2 years FR and now changing to sh > sh is completely different > you have to learn a complete new game

3. lol @ 200BB i lost over 600BB in my first month sh and had several swings that big

to take my last 10K hands i had at least 1 250BB swing in it including 2 or 3 100-150BB swings

[Hoi Polloi]

Looking at stats is important. There are (at least) a couple of other areas I've found useful.

1) are you adjusting to each of your opponents? You have to know whose going to showdown with any piece of the flop or pp; who will lay it down to a cBet on the turn; how light will he peel; does he semi-bluff raise the turn often enough to continue, etc. you play so much more HU at SH that you should adjust to each opponent as optimally as possible.

2) hand reading is very important; you need to develop a sense for the various ranges that your opponents are playing in basic situations/positions to develop a sense for your equity pre- and post-flop

3) are you aware of your image at all times? when should you give up vs. when will a cBet take it down, etc. Whatever your image is there are ways to take advantage; but you have some idea what it is first.

4) do you have balance in your lines or is your play predictable? 3/bet, cap ranges pre-flop; c/r vs. bet out from SB/BB; raise turn only for value.; is the cBet your only bluff, etc.

5) do you know how to counter different types of opponents? lags, tags, maniacs, weak/tight, etc.

1 thru 3 are things I'm thinking about all the time during every session. 4 and 5 are your tool kit; don't sit down without it.

[Heir_Aparent]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at stats is important. There are (at least) a couple of other areas I've found useful.

1) are you adjusting to each of your opponents? You have to know whose going to showdown with any piece of the flop or pp; who will lay it down to a cBet on the turn; how light will he peel; does he semi-bluff raise the turn often enough to continue, etc. you play so much more HU at SH that you should adjust to each opponent as optimally as possible.

2) hand reading is very important; you need to develop a sense for the various ranges that your opponents are playing in basic situations/positions to develop a sense for your equity pre- and post-flop

3) are you aware of your image at all times? when should you give up vs. when will a cBet take it down, etc. Whatever your image is there are ways to take advantage; but you have some idea what it is first.

4) do you have balance in your lines or is your play predictable? 3/bet, cap ranges pre-flop; c/r vs. bet out from SB/BB; raise turn only for value.; is the cBet your only bluff, etc.

5) do you know how to counter different types of opponents? lags, tags, maniacs, weak/tight, etc.

1 thru 3 are things I'm thinking about all the time during every session. 4 and 5 are your tool kit; don't sit down without it.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. was gonna post until i read this, pretty much outlines everything.

just to echo wat some others said- if ur going from FR to SH, it might seem like hell for a while. a lot of ppl cant take it/dont truly understand variance and # of hands to judge relevance (myself included). the most important thing you can do u is review your play every session. you should have a pretty good feel for how you played afterwards- was your play balanced? what mistakes did you make? its far more involved than FR so be prepared for huge swings. you will question yourself again- it is inevitable.

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
you will question yourself again- it is inevitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could not agree more with this. Gotta learn to surf the variance or you will go mad.

[johnnyrocket]

if u are smart its easy to beat full ring but more boring, shorthanded has lots of tough players so u really have to learn how to play differently, i would say u should play like 2/4 and 3/6 til u learn it well cuz 10/20 is pretty tough now

so play low, get ur feel and learn it well then move up=SUCCESS

[MyJunkIsYou]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I guess I'll post more hand examples on here, and yeah, maybe move down a bit until I'm more comfortable. I'm just perplexed because I started off very well at short-handed, even with variance, but I'm starting to think I'm playing too many hands and going too far with a lot of them. I don't know - are there any good posts/threads that outline what some ranges of optimality of pokertracker stats are, for proven long-term winning players in these games?

[dangerfish]

Very nicely written. This is good advice.

[Hoi Polloi]

Thanks, df.