How bad have the limit games gotten?

[ddubois]

When I stopped playing min-bet last June, I was a 1.39 bb/100 winner over 133k hands at Party $10/20 6max ($111/hr).

I switched to NL 6max and was making significantly more ($150/hr) on Party for a few months even though I was n00b, but then UIGEA and Neteller happened, and my winrate has plummeted ($70/hr this year), just like everyone elses.

I haven't been keeping up with this forum since I switched. Is it safe to assume the same thing has happened to you guys in the limit games? Would I even be a winner playing $10/$20 anymore?

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
When I stopped playing min-bet last June, I was a 1.39 bb/100 winner over 133k hands at Party $10/20 6max ($111/hr).

I switched to NL 6max and was making significantly more ($150/hr) on Party for a few months even though I was n00b, but then UIGEA and Neteller happened, and my winrate has plummeted ($70/hr this year), just like everyone elses.

I haven't been keeping up with this forum since I switched. Is it safe to assume the same thing has happened to you guys in the limit games? Would I even be a winner playing $10/$20 anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much everyone will tell you that the drop-off on the limit side is proportionately much greater than the drop-off on the NL side.

I wouldn't be playing limit now except maybe in Vegas if I knew how to play NL at all.

[Victor]

proly need to put more effort into table selection.

fwiw, ive done far better since party ended.

[Victor]

proly should add that the limits matter. 10 and 15 games are great like everywhere i look. 30/60 takes a bit more discretion but ive played it exclusively since feb and not had a problem.

i veiw table selection as most important aspect of poker and mine are likely the most stringent of anyone on the forum.

i dont know much about the higher stakes games 50/100+. i would imagine they are much tougher and that is what nate is referring too.

[bugstud]

neteller going down has saved so many fish at so many sites

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
proly should add that the limits matter. 10 and 15 games are great like everywhere i look. 30/60 takes a bit more discretion but ive played it exclusively since feb and not had a problem.

i veiw table selection as most important aspect of poker and mine are likely the most stringent of anyone on the forum.

i dont know much about the higher stakes games 50/100+. i would imagine they are much tougher and that is what nate is referring too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Victor, I'm not going to get into very many specifics. I've hardly been playing lately and when I do I'm 100% certain that I'm both running and playing sub-optimally. Plus I withdrew a lot of my online bankroll back when the [censored] hit the fan, lost some of the rest of it, and am not willing at the present time to take real money sitting in my savings or brokerage accounts and put it into an online poker account, even though I can "afford" to. So I'm playing a more limited selection of limits/sites than I used to.

The bottom line is that my results when I have played been just brutal post-UIGEA, and after talking to a handful of other 2+2ers about this issue, I'm sure that I'm not an isolated example.

I also think it's just plainly obvious that the games have gotten degrees of magnitude more difficult. Just look at the archives in MHSH from 18 months ago or something and see how much less advanced the strategy discussions were. There's just much better use of bluffing/folding equity nowadays, so many fewer people willing to pump the pot with second-best made hands, so many more people who are able to make some decent laydowns. Some of the leaks that 2+2ers were willing/able to shrug off before are now really catching up to them, myself most certainly included.

I suspect that if you're running better post-UIGEA, it's because of the following:

1) Luck (both bad luck before and good luck now);
2) Your style probably holds up relatively well against tougher players, but gives up profits against fish. My strengths/weaknesses were somewhat the opposite -- I'm really good about maximizing against fish but don't get as second/third/nth level as some of the true experts on here, which hurts me relatively more under tougher game conditions;
3) Luck;
4) You were grinding too much before and weren't paying enough attention to table selection; now the UIGEA has forced you to pay more attention.
5) A little more luck.

I'm not saying there aren't profits to be made -- I'm sure that there are -- but there's a night-and-day difference versus game conditions pre-UIGEA, and I don't see things getting any better.

[johnnyrocket]

[ QUOTE ]
neteller going down has saved so many fish at so many sites

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[Victor]

nate ive played 250k hands since the uigea so its not short term luck. i guess its medium term luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i think your points ar valid tho.

[inferno]

no love for limit games anymore? limit is the future!

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
nate ive played 250k hands since the uigea so its not short term luck. i guess its medium term luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i think your points ar valid tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to mention the other thing, which is that I'm sure you've gotten a lot better. It's encouraging to hear that you're doing pretty well over a large sample of hands.