Emotional Affairs

[tarheeljks]

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I see what you're driving at. Man just thinking about this in an honest way is making me feel guilty. And I haven't even done anything [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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i was having similar issues earlier, it really tilted me [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[tarheeljks]

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So if your girlfriend did this, you would not find her blameworthy, nor worry that it could happen again, and maybe worse? Since she basically exercised no volition anyway and therefore was not disloyal?

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Essentially correct. It doesn't mean that I can suppress the natural feelings that occur when a partner cheats. But, I rationally know that it happens, that it happens often, and that the person often has little say in the matter. I am also not an innocent boy so there are no stones for me to throw.

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imo this is a cop out and just a method for people to dodge the responsibility of their actions. just b/c "it happens" doesn't mean it has to or even should. people cannot realistically expect to suppress their emotions in all situations, but that doesn't make it ok to become enslaved by them. if someone gets caught up in a wave of passion they still make a decision, it's just not a rational one. possessing even a modicum of restraint allows the rational thought process to kick in, if only for a moment, and that moment is enough to stop if you want to stop. obv there are some scenarios where restraint goes out the window, but more often than not people just don't exhibit a strong enough will. saying they got trapped/tricked by their emotions doesn't necessarily make it ok.

edit: also, i think the adage that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones is ridiculous.

[Blarg]

WTF? Mondo had a response, there was a response to Mondo, and I had a response to that, and all three disappeared.

Pretty bad for continuity, to say the least.

[tarheeljks]

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can anyone honestly say that they don't get jealous, esp regarding the affections of someone they care about?

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Jealousy is a spectrum. I used to get jealous, but it was out of insecurity and fear. I thought about what I was afraid of and what it might mean, how I might react or deal with it.

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your posts in this tread have caused me to do some introspection. i don't consider myself a jealous person and am not in a relationship, but it is certainly something to think about.


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Once I went through those things, I realized for the most part I'm not really concerned. My wife can flirt, that doesn't bother me at all. In a sort of roundabout way I feel complimented when another guy thinks my wife is desirable. If she went farther than that, it'd bother me to the extent that I might fear our relationship was failing.

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flirting isn't what bothers me, the fact that there is no clear place to draw a line is what bothers me.

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I suppose the bottom line is I trust her and she's a good person. I suspect there's a lot I could forgive because I know her soul is basically good and kind. I'm less likely to forgive something like reckless spending, drug use, or violence. But making a mistake out of love or affection? That I might be able to get over. It'd be a long and difficult talk, but <u>I personally</u> have a hard time holding a grudge against someone for a mistake brought about by a essentially positive emotion like love/affection.

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is it really love though? love is what makes you feel ok about it, but passion is what makes it a risk in the first place

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If something happened, I know her nature and know that it wasn't to hurt me. It may or may not mean the end our marriage depending if it meant a change that I wasn't willing to accept (no, honey, you can't have him on the side. That just won't work for me...).

I'd have sadness, dissapointment, probably some anger for a little while, but I don't live in fear of it happening. Consequently, I don't typically feel jealousy.


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sounds like a sort of emotional nirvana, how old are you? this thread is tilting me again

[katyseagull]

tarheel,

I'm with you, this whole thread is putting me on tilt in a major way. First because it's spawned several different conversations and I'm having trouble following each of them (i'm really a very simple person).

Second, I feel like Duckman thinks I'm a self centered little jerk out flirting with a bunch of guys and that couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't even hug my own friends for god's sake. I'm one very reserved girl! I don't know why this bothers me because I don't even know Duckman and why do I care what he thinks of me anyway, but i do.

Third, trying to envision how I would react if some guy I was really attracted to kissed me in a casino has tilted me pretty badly. I tend to be a pretty straight and loyal person so this whole exercise started by me is sort of flipping me out.



About Strip Clubs-

I meant to address your question about the stripper girl yesterday but I started to watch The Office and then Big Shots and then I got tilted.


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katy mentioned the strip club earlier so i'll go w/that. let's say i like hitting up an sc ~1 a week and playing with the strippers, no sex-- just watching, maybe a lap dance. as b/f i feel it shouldn't have any bearing on the relationship and at the end of the day if she loves me she should trust me and believe that i mean it when i say it is meaningless. she otoh, doesn't want me touching/fawning over any other naked woman than herself and thinks that if i i love her this is a small sacrifice to make in order to keep the relationship in tact.


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I consider the strip club thing to be a pretty impersonal adventure. A guy is there to satisfy some need but he's not looking for a relationship so it's less threatening. It's like a one night gawking session isn't it? I don't really know [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. It's not like he's going to want a future with a stripper is he?

Intellectually (gah, i know Duckman is not going to like that i used this word) I want to be able to wrap my mind around the strip club idea because I realize that sex is fun and I don't want to feel I own my man or that I've got him on a ball and chain. Fine, go on to a strip club. You're a man, get your needs taken care of. Sexual desire is a powerful thing that I can appreciate and guys should not be denied all fun just because they've gotten into a relationship. I like to think that I'm open minded enough to understand the occasional wild night where a guy and his buddies decide to check out a strip club. (I draw the line at anything beyond a lap dance though.)

But let's be honest, if I were to witness my man getting a lap dance I'd probably get jealous and feel completely inadequate and fly at the girl in a rage. I just would not want to see this at all. So keep this stuff to yourself and do not share it with me is all I say. No need for me to know about your fun evening at the local strip club. I just would not want to know. I'm not that open minded. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[bogey1]

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tarheel,

I'm with you, this whole thread is putting me on tilt in a major way.


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Heh, I have to admit a part of me gets a kick out of the fact you and duckman are reeling a little from it. Not out of a sadistic side, but because I've had this conversation before and seen that when people really stop to analyze <u>why</u> something bothers them, they go down this rabbit hole because jealousy is incredibly difficult to justify.

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But let's be honest, if I were to witness my man getting a lap dance I'd probably get jealous and feel completely inadequate and fly at the girl in a rage.
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I just would not want to know. I'm not that open minded. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Both are perfectly reasonable, though in the first part I think those feelings are something that people can learn to get over, or minimize, by realizing their fears aren't really reasonable.

The second is absolutely reasonable. "Fine honey, go ahead, I can deal with it, but I just don't want to hear about it later." That's an entirely reasonable thing. My wife and I have always had a "looking is fine" rule. I can look at pretty women, I just can't drool and grab her hand and say "Damn, look at that ass!". I keep it to myself.

Another example of "don't tell" are fantasies. Well, in general, sharing them is great, but we all probably have fantasies we won't tell our partner. I know I have a couple that I wouldn't tell my spouse. Either they're dark or it's something you know your SO doesn't want and doesn't excite them. Nothing wrong with them, what works for your works, but you wouldn't share one you know wouldn't be enjoyed by both of you.

[tarheeljks]

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But let's be honest, if I were to witness my man getting a lap dance I'd probably get jealous and feel completely inadequate and fly at the girl in a rage. I just would not want to see this at all. So keep this stuff to yourself and do not share it with me is all I say. No need for me to know about your fun evening at the local strip club. I just would not want to know. I'm not that open minded.

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i think i'm open minded in general, but there is no need for me to even pretend i am regarding this. if i saw my wife/gf w/some guy's head in buried her chest, or vice versa for that matter, i would lose it. right now i don't care if that makes me insecure, but it would be nice to have the peace of mind not to worry about something like that.

edit: i blame bogey

[Orlando Salazar]

lol, katy totally has me on Ignore this user.

[bogey1]

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Third, trying to envision how I would react if some guy I was really attracted to kissed me in a casino has tilted me pretty badly. I tend to be a pretty straight and loyal person so this whole exercise started by me is sort of flipping me out.

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Ok, I feel a little guilty about that since I brought it up, but just a little. I think the self questioning that came out of it is healthy. Rather than just saying "I wouldn't do that!" you're actually looking at where you're temptations/weaknesses may lie. In doing so, I personally think we're less likely to fall to temptation because we'll be more aware of it as it's happening.

Consider this. Some insane percentage of married people cheat, like 60% for men and somewhat lower (though climbing over the years) of women.

I would bet that most of them, if you asked them a year before they cheated "Would you cheat on your wife?", that they'd say "Definately not! I'm a loyal person." And they believe it. There are pobably some exceptions, but people don't get married or in committed relationships with the intent to cheat.

So, we've got, say 1/2 of people physically cheating. Now, how many more were tempted, had an "emotional affair" that they shut down before it took the next step? While I have no idea, it's at least some since logic dictates not every tempted person actually cheats, so the 50-60% of cheaters is only a portion of those that were tempted.

So, essentially, we can state that most people experience this problem. An emotional attachment to someone other than their spouse that's strong enough to be tempting. Again, <u>most</u> people!

Given that, if I look at myself, I have to think odds are this is something I'll run into. Far better I really think about who I am and what might tempt me than just blindly go through life hoping not to be caught by suprise when my heart and body are synch up and desire flourishes.

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Just to tilt Katy further... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], a tldr section as an example of a harmless, yet not harmless, situation that could easily occur (hell, has occurred for me, except I had no desire for the woman so there was no subtle foreplay):

Let's say you and I met because our spouses are in the same line of work (insurance, lawyer, doctor, whatever) and we all became friends. You and I, there's a spark of sorts there, but it's low key. We have happy lives, we're all friends, nothing kicks that spark enough to matter.

We're all talking and realize next Friday our spouses have a CE (continuing education, many professionals have to do this). My wife says, "Why don't you and Katy have dinner and we'll meet you at the theatre next door around 8pm?". You and I probably both have a flash of doubt about dinner together, we know there's a little something there. But, our spouses just suggested it, it's hard to turn that down without looking odd, and really, a part of us would like to have the dinner together.

It's a nice restaurant. I suggest a bottle of wine. You hesitate, but I say "Come on, it's Friday and we've got an entire movie afterwards to get sober". Fine, you figure what the hell. A while later we're laughing and having a good time. I ask what you've done for the day, smalltalk. You mention a manicure.

The wine has my inhibitions a little lower, if I'm honest with myself, I'm feeling that spark. I take your hand and admire the nails. Really, maybe even subconsciously, it's an excuse for physical contact. But, hey, it's just your hand, right?

I make a comment like "Very nice, cute, red is sexy". You're going to feel a rush, maybe blush. A guy you like just touched you and complimented you. You're slightly tipsy and relaxed. Well, we both are.

So, I comment on your earrings...and touch your neck as I move them about... Moving in closer to see. At that point, I can guarantee both our pulses would have skyrocketed. We know we're playing with fire, yet, it feels so nice to be admired, desired. Little is more intoxicating that feeling our own desire reflected back at us in the eyes of the person we're with.

And so on...

All very innocent to begin with, and likely nothing will happen, but did a part of you want it to? This kind of thing happens, well, maybe not all the time, but frequently. People meet, have friends, and you know enough people and there will be someone in the group this could happen with. It's just inevitable the more people you know.

You can either be a hermit and live in fear of it, or you can look inside yourself and acknowlege the situations you think you might be weak in and just adjust slightly to avoid a bad situation.

"Not sure I want a full dinner, maybe go to the (loud and unromantic) sports bar down the block instead and have a burger and catch the first 1/2 of the Broncos/Steelers game before we go to the movie?"

[duckman]

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This whole thread is so delusional. You think this is an intellectual discussion. Its not intellectual, b/c its not intellect that drives this behaviour. Its our emotional and physical needs.
The engineer who cooked for you, the one you can't tell your partner how you felt about him -you think that's OK?

Sounds like this thread is an attempt to assuage your guilty conscience.



.... This is only the most shallow level of human interaction where our romantic partner is only a egoic projection of who we want someone to be - not a real person.
The emotional energy you could of put into yourself or your "committed" relationship was lost in this form of relationship masturbation.

And while I think defintions may vary, the litmus test of inappropriate is - would you have behaved differently had your partner been there? Any relationship that you can't tell your partner about necessarily falls into this category.

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Calm down duckman. How can the whole thread be delusional? We have different people saying completely opposite things! If I'm the one who's delusional well that I can accept. But you can't have me and tarheel and Cobretti all being delusional at the same time. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] It's just not possible. One of us has to be right and I'm sure it's one of them.


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Sounds like this thread is an attempt to assuage your guilty conscience.

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I have entertained this possibility. I will not deny it.


As for whether it's an intellectual discussion I can't argue with you about that. It's a forum and we are just saying what we think. I'll take your word for it that it's not intellectual and by that I assume you mean it's stupid. I was just wondering whether the majority of lounge viewers thought there was such a thing as an "emotional affair". I think it's pop psychology nonsense myself. Either you're in an affair or you're not or maybe you're moving towards one but in any case i don't believe in the concept of an emotional affair.

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I appreciate your response and I think there is value in this discussion.

Best
Duckman