$50 NLTRN, 2nd pair + OESD on turn facing psb donkbet

how_can_losing? · #1 11-24-2007, 07:23 PM

This might seem like a simple hand, but I have a specific reason for posting (which I will tell you after people post, b/c I don't want to influence opinions). Doesn't mean it's not a simple hand, but I do have a specific reason for posting.

This is hand 3 of a $50 turbo on UB, so there is a lot more play than on a Stars/FT turbo.

Reads: It's only the third hand, but here's the first hand (comments welcome on this hand too). Hand 2 he folded OTB.
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1500)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls t10, BB checks.

Flop: (t40) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t35, BB calls t35.

Turn: (t110) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t110) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB instapots t110, Hero thinks and folds.

Final Pot: t110

Onto the hand in question:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Ultimate Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1545)
Hero (t1455)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t120) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t95, BB calls t95.

Turn: (t310) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t310 nearly instantly, Hero...

Push? Raise? Fold? Call?

Thanks guys,

HCL

tmcdmck · #2 11-24-2007, 07:30 PM

is it really weak tight of me to say fold beacause i dont think he is folding and we dont have proper odds to draw? we could be ahead but his line just looks strong to me.

Somekid · #3 11-24-2007, 08:08 PM

We might have implied odds to draw the villain is going to do something crazy like bet huge or shove on the river. Also, villain could be bluffing...especially since this is early. Actually, I have no idea what to do here (other than only bet 80 on the flop).

I think I'd fold as well [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] But I think that might be horrible.

how_can_losing? · #4 11-25-2007, 02:09 PM

Thanks, tmcdmck and Somekid. I was hoping for a couple more responses but I guess I posted at a bad time, or the hand isn't that interesting. Anyway, I agree with both of you that I should probably fold. I pokerstoved a reasonable range and saw that I was very behind with little FE. The range I assigned was something like two pairs involving the K, nut FD with K or 9, made straights, some other two-pair and draws, etc.

What actually happened was, I pushed. (Results to be posted later, hopefully I get a few more responses--if not, I'll post results later tonight).

I think in retrospect Fold >> Push >>> Call given that range.

I don't want to call because if villain has a FD, I am facing 17 cards on the river that I don't want to see (I suppose the BDFD is less likely unless villain has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or something). If I am ahead somehow and I improve to a straight, I probably won't get action.

how_can_losing? · #5 11-25-2007, 02:12 PM

Somekid, why do you say bet 80 on this flop? I usually bet more on drawy boards to charge draws (if my hand has SD value and/or hit the flop). I know there is something to be said for cbetting the same amount every time, is that why? I'm curious to see how others handle these situations.

tmcdmck · #6 11-25-2007, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Somekid, why do you say bet 80 on this flop? I usually bet more on drawy boards to charge draws (if my hand has SD value and/or hit the flop). I know there is something to be said for cbetting the same amount every time, is that why? I'm curious to see how others handle these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

its fine to vary your cbet if villain is a drooler and can be exploited. if they have half a brain cell it is a bad idea because

1) they will figure you out and exploit you
2) sometimes it willcost you more to cont bet

conclusion: it is not normal to vary cont bet sizes. 80 is 100% standard.

how_can_losing? · #7 11-25-2007, 03:54 PM

I should clarify:

I tend to cbet bigger on drawy flops if:

1. I have air or a hand with no SD value but I think villain is likely to c/f (or, if he calls, I can take it away from villain when scare card comes later)
2. If I have SD value/piece of flop/overpair/monster and I think villain will call with draws and weak hands

Obviously if I cbet more on drawy flops, I have to do it both when I have a hand and when I don't.

I don't like cbetting 80/120 on a flop like this if my read of the villain is that he will call bigger bets with draws.

If villain is very aggro and likely to c/r a lot, I would cbet less often/less chips.

That said, I used to cbet the same amount every time, and now I'm experimenting with cbetting varying amounts based on the texture of the board and my opponent's range, more so than my own cards. I think ultimately this is a better strategy than cbetting the same amount every time, but I am not sure that I am implementing this strategy well. Also I am not sure how this affects villains who are not droolers but not sophisticated enough to catch on that I am capable of betting bigger with both air and good hands.

Kalledrengen · #8 11-25-2007, 04:39 PM

I think c-betting a bit less on drawy boards is alright.

I see myself calling here many times, however against an unknown villain I would probably fold because I do not expect great implied odds if I hit my straight when there is 4 to a straight on the board.
He is out of posistion though so that adds a bit to the chance of having good implied odds if he is gonna try take down the pot even if the 4'th card comes.

mb6tour · #9 11-25-2007, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think c-betting a bit less on drawy boards is alright.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

how_can_losing? · #10 11-25-2007, 09:42 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure what he meant by that, but I'm guessing he means it's ok to bet 80/120 consistently instead of betting more on drawy boards.

Anyway, results. I pushed, villain thought for a second and called with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I held.

The instant he called I thought that pushing was a mistake, and then I saw his hand and was pretty surprised.

The reason I posted is because after pokerstoving a reasonable range for a non-maniac villain, it seems obvious that folding the turn is best. I won this hand, and based on his play in hand 1, I thought there was a chance I was ahead on the turn. But in this spot I think folding is the clear play against most villains, right?