Bankroll Management Thoughts from the cheap seats. - long

[Smurph64]

I have moved through the micros now twice before up to 3/6 and have had little issues with playing winning sustainable poker.

I am now on the 3rd move through them and honestly I don't want to go through them again.

I cash out when I get risk adverse. Some of you guys find that ludicrious but I think we all hit a level of risk adversity at some point, mine just happens to be quite low.

When I get risk adverse I stop playing optimal poker. That is bad. I know it's bad so I cash out. That trend has to stop.

After much debate with myself and myself, I have come to the conclusion that my fear of losing money is caused by playing with the wrong bankroll.

I know two things: 300 bb swings are going to happen, I have had two already and I know that each level we move up gets tougher. So it is silly of me to expect 300bb at the higher levels to be adequate for my risk thoughts to remain neutral.

I also know that staying at levels lower than necessary actually makes problems too as the value of that money becomes so insignificant as to allow you to donk it away, go on ego runs and tilt fests, all of which do not help you at all.

I have tried in the past to manage bankroll with short term swing control, otherwise know as stop loss levels and they are all well and good to a point.

But stop loss is an emotional response. It helps keep emotions out of the decision making process of trying to get back to scratch which is another problem so easy to fall into.

Despite having 130k hands now at the micro levels and being a winning player for that time, I still don't know how good a player I am. The numbers are still too low. Anxiety creeps in as each level is passed faster and faster.

At the micros its so easy to move up quickly, the pots double and so we go through some incredible ego situations at some point, thinking skill levels are much higher than they are, and becoming more and more addicted to the thrill of this 'extra' money.

Taking a $5 dollar investment and making a 800% return in 3 months puts all kinds of crazy thoughts into your head.

Oh imagine if it were 100 bucks and I did that, etc. So now we want to level up to compete with the rush of making mucho and we just aren't qualified for that experience.

We crash so many of us and burn. Each cashout for me happened after a short term losing streak. How deflating is that? Its brutal. I took my winnings, which now felt like losses and yes I bought a computer and fixed my car, but it still felt like a consolation prize.

I don't think its good to do this in the long term. Each learning session becomes harder to focus through, each run up although actually much shorter seems longer and more boring.

Multitabling helps of course but then it takes away from some of the quality of my poker, which is attacking idiots and maximizing by adjusting my game play to the table conditions.

So coming to the point of the topic - How do I manage my bankroll so that I can remain a risk neutral player?


I believe, with this being the 3rd run up that I have no problem with a 300bb bankroll at .5/.10 6 max. According to the numbers at this limit I have less than a 1% chance of going broke.

If I go broke at that level its nothing to rebuy. So that level is definitely risk neutral.

At the next level up .10/.20 6 max I have a 1% chance of going broke at 350 bb according to the numbers. Rebuy is $70 so that level is definitely risk neutral. I think that is my base low level now.

The next level of course gaps more than double so its a tricky level. For me adding 50 bb to each level makes a lot of sense. So a buy in at .25/.50 6 max would be 400bb or $200. This is getting close for me. So currently I don't want to have to deposit $200 if I go broke.

Its not a lot of money but it puts the perspective of how low my risk neutrality level is.

So now the question is managing moving up and moving down levels to maintain a risk neutrality ideal play situation.

I believe adding 50bb to my bankroll numbers for each level is essential. So for me the dollar tables will require a bankroll of $450 dollars and $1000 at the 1/2 tables.

What does this all mean? Not much likely but essentially I am establishing for myself my bankroll principles that are not effected by my current running of cards.

I don't want to negotiate my lvl to play at whenever I get on a swing.

My hard cap is such that if I drop below the minimum br for a lvl I drop a level.

Therefore my play levels will now be the following:

$0 to $70 = .10/.20 6 max tables
$70 to $200 = .25/.50 6 max
$200 to $450 = .50/1.00 6 max
$450 to $1000 = 1.00/2.00 6 max.
$1000 to $2200 = 2/4 6 max.

I think I have to stop there. At that lvl I plan to start cashing out until the worth of that money goes down.

Therefore I will play up to $2200 in the bank and cash out half of that for the level to go back to $1600 each time I hit that cap.

You will notice therefore that at that limit I am essentially playing with a 300bb bankroll. If I never lose that bankroll then all is well. If I do lose then I already have the money in at the lower lvl and I can go again from there.

I hope this eliminates for me the 6 lvls a month I have played since I started and balances out my emotions effectively.

I think for me the quality of my life has to change for me to move up beyond that level.

That will probably be 5 to 10 cashouts but we shall see.

Sorry if this bores you guys, it was for me that I write this and thought I would share in case it someone can learn from this or comment on it so I can learn some more myself.

Thanks.

[smithsj1]

Being a newbie to this forum it is a bit daunting making my first post as a response to a bankroll management post but what the heck lets make a fool of myself on day 1 and things can only get better..lol

Anyway I must admit that I am really a SNG/Tournament donkey but I've been thinking about getting back into cash games. For my bankroll guide I have decided that I will take 500 bb for limit holdem on a full ring game and if I'm playing a short handed table then I will go for 750 bb. To my mind this makes sense to have a higher requirement at the short tables because you are in the blinds 30-33% of the time instead of 20-22% of the time and the games are generally looser.

For what its worth I think that you should only cash out if you need the money. For me you lose the ability to compound your winnings and run up a huge bankroll if you constantly withdraw your funds. Einstein once said that compound interest is "the greatest mathematical discovery of all time." and if you have a positive ROI then why argue with Einstein - let your bankroll compound.

[jeanbaptiste36]

I would suspect that this risk-adversity, is just your brain trying to tell you to take a vacation from poker.
After 6 months playing constantly, I must take a vacation or loose my roll. A month or something, not playing a hand and not thinking about poker.

This adding 50BB for each level is standard. I think I heard some higherstakes-player saying he need 1000BB to play.

[Fantam]

I suppose its a personal decision. If someone has a job and can treat their poker bankroll as abstract chips separate from their regular income, then presumably they can keep moving up limits while they feel comfortable to do so.

However, if you are a winning player, then it seems to make sense to enjoy some of your winnings from time to time.

[Ulkis]

OP, excellent post. I started poker very recently in April this year, after having retired from the hedge fund industry in my early 40's. It is unbelievable how similar poker is to trading: psychology, risk management, risk, reward, the lot. What you are correctly saying and may be kind a new to poker thinking, is very old and familiar to the financial sector. Many same principles apply. Many concepts are now being "found" in poker, have existed in the financial markets for ages.

What you are thinking is your risk and your attitude to it. I don't think there is one correct way to it. What your post highlights is that there is more to poker than being a scandinavian risk-taker with sunglasses and all-in moves
;-), heck, this web-site and micro-board has proven that to me. Thinking players who not only think about their upside but more importantly their downside.

You have moved up and down (your own will) couple of times, it works for you, fine. I started with $50 lowest limits, got it up to couple of hundred before buying PT, God knows how. Showed nice profits there after, got into a horrible downswing, now out of it and working on to make profits again. My take on risk is different from yours, I'll try to work hard to learn and build it up, move higher limits and try to stay there. But when I lose that $10 pot in .5/1 it still hurts, not because it is a huge amount of money, but because I failed, did not play best poker I could've, and got out in time. I would not dare deposit $'s enough just to move higher - what would be the point, I'm not good enough, it's much juicier to build it up, that way you'll think you've earned it.

As you can see from my rant, your post was a great inspiration.

[KyleFall]

I don't know if I simply have not played enough hands or not, but I have never once had a swing anywhere close to 300bb at a micro stakes limit game.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I simply have not played enough hands or not, but I have never once had a swing anywhere close to 300bb at a micro stakes limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

yet

[wcsherry]

How many hands have you played KyleFall? My last session I lost ten hands in a row on the river and went down 70 BB's putting me down 150 for the last 10k hands. Just keep playing, the game can be horrendously cruel at times.

Edit: Teriffic post OP, I'm in the same boat, sort of.

[Point Blank]

[ QUOTE ]
I cash out when I get risk adverse. Some of you guys find that ludicrious but I think we all hit a level of risk adversity at some point, mine just happens to be quite low.

When I get risk adverse I stop playing optimal poker. That is bad. I know it's bad so I cash out. That trend has to stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

does this mean - when you move up you are under rolled and start playing like wimp??

[ QUOTE ]
I also know that staying at levels lower than necessary actually makes problems too as the value of that money becomes so insignificant as to allow you to donk it away, go on ego runs and tilt fests, all of which do not help you at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play 50c-100c - 10/20 ... $$ makes no difference (only winning ... and by winning I mean playing what I think is correctly)

[ QUOTE ]

Taking a $5 dollar investment and making a 800% return in 3 months puts all kinds of crazy thoughts into your head.

Oh imagine if it were 100 bucks and I did that, etc. So now we want to level up to compete with the rush of making mucho and we just aren't qualified for that experience

[/ QUOTE ]

get these thoughts out of your head ... the only time poker will ever make a large impact on life is when I win a WPT title (lol)

your cash for levels looks OK
I would play with more for 2-4 (especially 6max)
think about it
you sit down with $200 ... that's five tables max (i've had a bad day on all tables once) - that would cripple you

***
I've only cashed out once ...
I always tell myself ... I'll play till A/B level and stay there for a while and cash out when X dollar

then I get to that $ level then look at the next level up (see a bunch of retards sitting at the table - and know that it's the same game) - and say F U C K that cashing out [censored] IT'S GO TIME

***

always play with what you are willing to lose (no more) - you want to play another level up (take a standard bring-in, - that's now fun money ... are you willing to lose all tat money - if not, don't move up if it will effect your currently level of play)

[Smurph64]

I hear what you are saying Point Blank and as before I commend you on that attitude.

That approach doesn't work for me. I know that, I have done it twice before thinking that only to get screwed up at 5/10 or 3/6. I have cashed out about 2k in poker winnings so far. I could justify playing to myself without long term management skills playing 3/6 right now and end up not looking back. Or I can play 3/6 go on a simple 300 bb drop and lose 2 years of work. Its only money but its time invested. If I lost my poker winnings playing at my max bankroll today, I don't have 2k to rebuy. And frankly I only have 1600 hands at 3/6 with a 1.84 bb/100 avg so I have no idea if I am a winning player there.


At that point I may be at my level of experience where I may not win.

I don't know yet. The short term situations have always hit me there. Bad luck, karma, Murphy's Law. I have no idea.

This money management posting is basically a contract with myself.

I am saying that if my bankroll drops below $1000 dollars I stop playing at the 2-4 lvl leaving me with 500bb at the lower lvl.

If I go below $450 then I drop down again.

With this I know I can handle some really bad swings.

Right now I am on a huge upswing having won 150 bb in 400 hands and 680 bb in 14k hands for a 4.49 bb/100 avg. It's easy to get cocky and euphoric for me at this time and think, "I am playing well right now, I played $1 limit before for no trouble, what are the odds I lose 100 bb straight? Not much...hrmm take a 15bb challenge...see what happens...."

You can see to where this type of moronic thinking can lead. Well historically for me it leads to cashing out after playing 5k hands of seat of the pants poker pushing edges and playing like an idiot, getting hot and bothered at the screen, being in a bad mood, obsessions with the cards and the bad luck which isn't really bad luck at all.

This is the 3rd time and finally I know that without money management skills keeping me in check at all times I am going to make some stupid moves in the future.

By managing myself for the first time with long term goals, by giving myself permission to acclimatizing myself to making sure I am pyschologically able to handle 1200 dollar swings before I move up, When I get to the 2/4 play balance level of $1k and start playing 2/4 with 15 bb's. I will know that I have already cashed out this risk from my poker account. I know I can essentially handle a 600 bb swing here and be break even. But I would rather be in the boat where I cash out a few more times and bump that number up even more. I help myself not only for the long term of limit poker but also to being able to handle and learn to play NL poker as well.

This is my contract to make sure I am not letting myself play emotional poker ever again.