Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Other Topics > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:08 AM
xorbie xorbie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: far and away better
Posts: 15,690
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
If a voluntary interaction between A and B affects C (and I agree this is possible), then you may very well have an involuntary transaction. In those cases, you now have a non-arbitrary "line".

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but what if I tell you that 99% of what you might consider "voluntary transactions" do affect 3rd parties, and thus are "involuntary". So, again, where do we draw the line?

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, so anyone who wants to can replace their *local* elected representative on a whim as you suggested they do if they aren't satisfied?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they can't change it on a whim, that would be absurd. But presumably people would choose to surround themselves with others who share some core values, philosophies and cultural traditions (we call this a community). When their elected officials act in a way that violates these fundamental tenets, it should be fairly easy to rally up the support of one's neighbors. If you find that you are unable to do so, you ought to consider that maybe your neighbors don't, for the most part, share your values and philosophies and that you ought to find a new community.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:16 PM
pvn pvn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: back despite popular demand
Posts: 10,955
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a voluntary interaction between A and B affects C (and I agree this is possible), then you may very well have an involuntary transaction. In those cases, you now have a non-arbitrary "line".

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but what if I tell you that 99% of what you might consider "voluntary transactions" do affect 3rd parties, and thus are "involuntary". So, again, where do we draw the line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I consider those voluntary if they aren't?

I'm still not sure what you mean when you ask where to draw the line. You draw it at "involuntary".

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Oh, so anyone who wants to can replace their *local* elected representative on a whim as you suggested they do if they aren't satisfied?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they can't change it on a whim, that would be absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then please never, ever, ever again use the blame-the-victim "zomg you elected the wrong person dummy" argument.

[ QUOTE ]
But presumably people would choose to surround themselves with others who share some core values, philosophies and cultural traditions (we call this a community).

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds great. In the real world, however, people are compelled to participate in "communities" with other people not of their choosing. When governments become optional organizations that you can join and leave just like you do a health club or phone company, then this "elect someone better" argument might hold water. Until then, it doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]
When their elected officials act in a way that violates these fundamental tenets, it should be fairly easy to rally up the support of one's neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. In your fantasyland yootopia.

[ QUOTE ]
If you find that you are unable to do so, you ought to consider that maybe your neighbors don't, for the most part, share your values and philosophies and that you ought to find a new community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%. In the fantasyland yootopia.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:52 PM
pokerbobo pokerbobo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Takin a log to the beaver
Posts: 1,318
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!


[/ QUOTE ]



LOL... Sorry... no possible other answer than laughing at your post!

PS I have lived, and visited SFO many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

R U saying there is a more loony liberal city in the US Midge? Please name if that is the case.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:56 PM
pvn pvn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: back despite popular demand
Posts: 10,955
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!


[/ QUOTE ]



LOL... Sorry... no possible other answer than laughing at your post!

PS I have lived, and visited SFO many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

R U saying there is a more loony liberal city in the US Midge? Please name if that is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Berkeley?
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:09 PM
pokerbobo pokerbobo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Takin a log to the beaver
Posts: 1,318
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I can't believe so many people think this is a bad idea.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just a crazy person that doesn't think the city should be able to [censored] with private business.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are getting a little extreme here. First of all ,yes the city SHOULD be able to "mess" with private buisness. This is a good thing. I'm stretching here but should a buisness be allowed to dump toxic waste in your parks? Should the city step in when a restaurant is serving rotten dog meat? I think yes.

I do not agree that the cost should be places on the businesses though ..but it dosn't have to. Simply charge the customer for these costly more "green" bags. If the customer dosn't want to pay then they can bring their own bags/boxes.

Side note - Politics aside, if you don't think trying to minimize creation of plastic bags is a good thing then you are ignorant at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the market would take care of any restaurant serving rotten dog meat. Does not sound like a successful business practice to me.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:18 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: far and away better
Posts: 15,690
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]

Why would I consider those voluntary if they aren't?

I'm still not sure what you mean when you ask where to draw the line. You draw it at "involuntary".


[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can't base a society on voluntary interaction and trading when so few things don't affect others. Nobody can drive a car, nobody can really do anything that pollutes the environment, nobody can play loud music. Again, you haven't actually replied to this, you simply keep saying "voluntary transactions" and I'm trying to talk about the practical complications therein.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:24 PM
xorbie xorbie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: far and away better
Posts: 15,690
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]

That sounds great. In the real world, however, people are compelled to participate in "communities" with other people not of their choosing. When governments become optional organizations that you can join and leave just like you do a health club or phone company, then this "elect someone better" argument might hold water. Until then, it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So long as you continue to think I'm the one living in a fantasyland utopia, this is going nowhere. I'm not even sure where to place your belief, since all I see you do is bitch and moan about the government. My solution isn't perfect, but it is a solution. If you honestly think it is impossible to affect the outcome of a mayor's election (how many people even vote in these elections??) so that someone is elected that supports your basic tenets, or to move somewhere where that is already the case... I don't know what to tell you. America is a very, very diversfied country. For better or worse, you will find people who agree with what you say, almost regardless of what that is. It may mean moving to New Hampsire or Montana or whatever other forgotten corner, but that's just how it is. If you want to have no government whatsoever, then I'm simply going to have to question which one of us lives in a fantasyland utopia and move on.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:40 PM
pvn pvn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: back despite popular demand
Posts: 10,955
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why would I consider those voluntary if they aren't?

I'm still not sure what you mean when you ask where to draw the line. You draw it at "involuntary".


[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that you can't base a society on voluntary interaction and trading when so few things don't affect others. Nobody can drive a car, nobody can really do anything that pollutes the environment, nobody can play loud music.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? You're suggesting that the possibility of involuntary transactions makes a voluntary society impossible? This is the "zomg there will still be murderers in AC land, it's doomed to failure" argument.

Of course there are things that effect other people. Most of them aren't enough of a problem for anyone to do anything about it.

The kid down the street sometimes drives by my house with his radio blaring. You're saying that because of this I must logically accept a state? The state hasn't put a stop to it (just as it hasn't stopped pollution), so I'm not really sure how you jump from "problem" to "necessity of a state".

[ QUOTE ]
Again, you haven't actually replied to this, you simply keep saying "voluntary transactions" and I'm trying to talk about the practical complications therein.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having an involuntary society doesn't magically make those practical complications disappear. So what exactly do you want to talk about?
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:47 PM
pokerbobo pokerbobo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Takin a log to the beaver
Posts: 1,318
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!


[/ QUOTE ]



LOL... Sorry... no possible other answer than laughing at your post!

PS I have lived, and visited SFO many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

R U saying there is a more loony liberal city in the US Midge? Please name if that is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Berkeley?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Berkeley is the source of the """thinking""" (I use that term loosly).... but I think SFO still puts them into practice more.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:48 PM
jogsxyz jogsxyz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

50 years ago. Supervisors in SF were part-timers. Had no power. It was better that way.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.