The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[Brad1970]

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Brad, JAK,

I'll give you a more thorough answer later, but I do need to get back to work. The short answer is, what are the two greatest commandments? First is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength," and the second is, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Those are spelled out in no uncertain terms, and to them, all else is peripheral. The other thing I bear in mind is that, at least to me, the words of St. Paul are secondary to the words of Jesus. St. Paul was a good man, but a man just the same, and he was generally tougher on the drunkards and the fornicators et al. than Jesus was. With that all in mind, if the church is to be spreading a message that misses Christ's mark, I'd prefer they spread one that is overly permissive, accepting and loving than a message that is overwrought with hate, division, and exclusion.

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Wookie,

After sleeping on this thread overnight, there is a rebuttal to your thoughts that came to mind. While I don't totally disagree with what you are saying, I believe that the 'ugly' facts of the Bible, if you will, such as the wages of sin is death and that Hell is a real place must be studied, taught, & preached in our churches. Sadly, at times, it is not. That is exactly what Satan wants...makes his job easier. The end result is you wind up with a crop of Christians who believe there is no hell & even if there was, God is a loving God & wouldn't send anyone there. I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail. IMO, that fear factor/hardcore truth needs to be addressed right along with the warm & fuzzy parts that everybody likes to hear. Afterall, it is part of the gospel.

[MrWookie]

Brad,

First, I agree. However, as I mentioned in my last post in this thread, there's a difference between teaching the scripture and enforcing the scripture, and there's a difference between teaching about Hell and threatening Hell. I don't take issue with the teachers. I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

Second, though, I would argue that even if a church misses the mark and doesn't teach the parts of scripture about Hell, if it still gets its members to obey the two most important commandments, little is actually lost. When it comes down to it, Hell is largely irrelevant to someone who obeys the first two commandments. They certainly won't be going there, and even if they followed the two greatest commandments perfectly, they wouldn't be the ones to decide who goes there and who doesn't. Is a Christian education without any knowledge of hell incomplete? Yes, of course. Is the lack of knowledge about hell on its own a significant barrier to a relationship with God in this world or the next? No, not really.

[JMP300z]

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I take issue with the enforcers and the threateners.

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Mr. Wookie, I appreciate your comments and your considerate beliefs. However, is not the nature of god with respect to hell one of an enforcer and a threatener? I just thought of one response...is this negated by his leaving one simple out through jesus?

-JP

[MrWookie]

God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to. We, however, are taught to "judge not, lest ye may be judged." God is the true judge, and He is the only true source of both justification and condemnation. People claiming to speak on His behalf about who He justifies and who He condemns are just clanging cymbals, causing a lot of racket, but not really amounting to much.

[JMP300z]

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God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to. We, however, are taught to "judge not, lest ye may be judged." God is the true judge, and He is the only true source of both justification and condemnation. People claiming to speak on His behalf about who He justifies and who He condemns are just clanging cymbals, causing a lot of racket, but not really amounting to much.

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So I should keep my mouth shut and my thoughts closed in thinking the god you describe is a despot who rules by fear and punishment of those who question his excessively harsh punishment (I consider eternal hell pretty excessive compared to most any crime committed in the blink of a lifetime).

-JP

[JMP300z]

Just realized how far off topic my posts have helped to derail this thread, sorry op and sorry all talk involving religion seems to be funneled directly into the same discussions.

-JP

[daveT]

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God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to.

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Welcome to the Animal Farm.

[Brad1970]

You know there is an SMP forum. Some of you would really like the "atheist sandbox" over there.

[MrWookie]

All,

It looks like we're starting to get onto some subjects where debate on an internet message board is completely unproductive and too often leads to unpleasant arguments. I've been pleasantly surprised with the tone of this thread so far, but by and large, I don't care to deal with questions of the existence of God. I am respectful and tolerant of atheists, and I didn't come into this thread trying to convert anyone, but I consider asking me questions to try and back me into a logical trap not being particularly respectful or tolerant of my beliefs. I'm not going to deal with those questions, but if you want to continue along those lines, there are probably people in SMP who'd enjoy sparring with you. I'll deal with a few more of these questions later, though.

[katyseagull]

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I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

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I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.