Low Limit-Limit Holdem vs Blackjack, which is better?

[fishyak]

With standard deviations you will never be able to figure it out. By the time you have enough data, your skill levels will have moved.

But if you are 16.01% better than the average no fold'em hold'em player in a 16% rake world, you are now EV+.

[Gap23Razor]

right now, i'd say play no limit hold em for low stakes...and maybe the no limit Fast Tournies a la Arnold Snyder are a good opportunity now (see his book The Poker Formula)

really, bj v poker depends on where you live, how much money you have, how much time you have, and how cold hearted you can be about taking money from someone that may not be able to afford losing...those are important factors

good blackjack games are only in a few places...and for good selection of low limit bj games to go to Reno Nevada...Vegas has a few good low limit shoe games, but most good games there call for you to be playing $25 and up games on the strip and be willing to go up to $300 to $400 per hand if you a just counting...and you need a big bankroll for that...there are a few other places with a few good games around the county...Gulf Coast, Indiana, Palm Springs, parts of Arizona and New Mexico, a couple of places in Atlantic City...again mostly shoes offered...but most places offer really bad bj games (high house edge, bad pen, continuouse shuffle machines or fake 2 deck games) that can't be beaten by just counting...there are other ways to win, but they require extensive training or scouting and only a serious player can commit to them

low limit hold em poker is more widespread, as most states have some form of legal poker play...it probably best you learn low no limit right now imho as it offered more frequently in casinos that spread poker, newbies want to play no limit rather than limit.

[jackhigh]

[ QUOTE ]
With standard deviations you will never be able to figure it out. By the time you have enough data, your skill levels will have moved.

But if you are 16.01% better than the average no fold'em hold'em player in a 16% rake world, you are now EV+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really attainable? If all the cards eventually "even out" - and in these small stakes "riverfests" you can't really outplay anybody and must always show down the best hand- how can anyone have much of an edge? A 10-16% house vig would make this the the absolute worst game in the house - worse than Keno? Am I missing something? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[leo doc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With standard deviations you will never be able to figure it out. By the time you have enough data, your skill levels will have moved.

But if you are 16.01% better than the average no fold'em hold'em player in a 16% rake world, you are now EV+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really attainable? If all the cards eventually "even out" - and in these small stakes "riverfests" you can't really outplay anybody and must always show down the best hand- how can anyone have much of an edge? A 10-16% house vig would make this the the absolute worst game in the house - worse than Keno? Am I missing something? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You are mistaken in that "you really can't outplay anybody." (See SSHE's section on playing in very loose games.) fishyak is spot-on, if you're 16.1% (or more) better than the other players, then you'll be +EV playing poker because it'll be THEIR money paying your rake. In BJ, over the long term, it's YOUR money going to the house since they have the .35% advantage.

[johnnylovescandy]

I used to agree, until this read:




NOW I'M +++++EV in BJ BABY!!!!

[Hyperrrprank]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With standard deviations you will never be able to figure it out. By the time you have enough data, your skill levels will have moved.

But if you are 16.01% better than the average no fold'em hold'em player in a 16% rake world, you are now EV+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really attainable? If all the cards eventually "even out" - and in these small stakes "riverfests" you can't really outplay anybody and must always show down the best hand- how can anyone have much of an edge? A 10-16% house vig would make this the the absolute worst game in the house - worse than Keno? Am I missing something? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You are missing something key. DON'T PLAY THE SAME NO-FOLD'EM HOLD'EM YOUR OPPONENTS PLAY. Invest in pots when you have an equity advantage. While you'll get sucked out on ocassionally, if you play properly you'll win more than your share of pots. The rake only affects you on the blinds and when you choose to enter a pot. Choose the right pots, and make sure to charge everyone else involved the maximum.

Read SSHE. Play 400 hours, and play them properly. Keep careful records. Calculate your win-rate per hour.

If it is not better than -.35%, quit playing poker AND blackjack and take up knitting.

[jackhigh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With standard deviations you will never be able to figure it out. By the time you have enough data, your skill levels will have moved.

But if you are 16.01% better than the average no fold'em hold'em player in a 16% rake world, you are now EV+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really attainable? If all the cards eventually "even out" - and in these small stakes "riverfests" you can't really outplay anybody and must always show down the best hand- how can anyone have much of an edge? A 10-16% house vig would make this the the absolute worst game in the house - worse than Keno? Am I missing something? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You are missing something key. DON'T PLAY THE SAME NO-FOLD'EM HOLD'EM YOUR OPPONENTS PLAY. Invest in pots when you have an equity advantage. While you'll get sucked out on ocassionally, if you play properly you'll win more than your share of pots. The rake only affects you on the blinds and when you choose to enter a pot. Choose the right pots, and make sure to charge everyone else involved the maximum.

Read SSHE. Play 400 hours, and play them properly. Keep careful records. Calculate your win-rate per hour.

If it is not better than -.35%, quit playing poker AND blackjack and take up knitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems reasonable, however after the flop, with 5-6 callers and 12+ bets in the pot (after raises etc.), aren't most players getting the odds to just call you down to the river if they have any playable hand? Even 7-2 is less than a 12-1 dog to aces. Does any one player really have that much of an advantage with pots so big? Since you can't really outplay anybody (bluff), you need to simply show down the best hand.

If most players are showing down the best hands, and the cards simply even out in the end, then the 10-16% house take looms very large in this game.

[mntndrew]

You aren't putting enough weight into how much additional equity you win by outplaying them preflop, the easiest street of all.

Also, while it's true that bloated pots often make it correct to draw thinly postflop, this does not mean that you can't outplay them postflop. You can do that by betting for value more often than they would and by protecting your hand with raises that force them to draw unprofitably.

Your opponents' thin peels can be correct postflop because of preflop mistakes. But consider that in a 10 SB pot, you may have 40% equity while your 4 opponents have 20%, 20%, 10% and 10%. They may be correct to call a bet getting 10:1 and only being 4:1 or 9:1 dogs; that's fine, you still are putting in 20% of the money with 40% equity on that street.

Finally, the rake *is* big. But you're playing to make money from your opponents' mistakes; in blackjack, you can minimize the house advantage, but you can't (as far as I know) turn it in your favor.

[BigBadBabar]

lol @ this thread
how can blackjack, a game where you have no edge at all, unless you count cards and the casino tries to stop that, be more +ev than poker where you are in control, can play better hands than your opponents and can outplay them as well?

also jackhigh if you're gonna post this here in a forum where lots of us play live poker, you should probably give some weight to our opinions?

[Hyperrrprank]

Babar to the rescue!