Help with some Ray Zee advice

[Micturition Man]

I mostly agree with Beavis.

These hands should definitely be playable in various circumstances (getting in cheap, getting for a bet in a very multiway pot, stealing in a favorable steal position).

But I don't see how they could possibly be 'some of the best' starting hands.

Also based on twodimes I don't think you should be peeling 4th versus an improved low unless the pot is quite large.

Cold-calling on 4th after bricking seems like it could not possibly be correct.

I would venture to say they are worth about as much a pair of the lowest rank (e.g. KQTs is worth about the same as split tens), except they do not suffer as much from having overcards behind them on 3rd or from getting multiway action.

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture to say they are worth about as much a pair of the lowest rank (e.g. KQTs is worth about the same as split tens), except they do not suffer as much from having overcards behind them on 3rd or from getting multiway action.

[/ QUOTE ] I think this is a very accurate description.

I play them out, but the biggest problem that I see with these sort of hand is that your opponents know you're going high, unless the ace is up. That's a big disadvantage in this game and it feels like that alone robs these type hands from substantial profitability, because the selection of when and how to play them is crucial to their profitability. If you get in a short-handed pot with a good player with any sort of decent low draw you'll be hard pressed not to get very easily outplayed unless you make your hand very early.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

Zee later differentiates between higher three straights and medium three straights such as QJT or JT9. So I would guess AKQ or KQJ mainly.

How live? You probably want no more than one of your suit out, the cards consecutive to your three cards live, and most of your pair cards (especially your door card) live. For example, if you held KQJs and were completely live, you have 9 flush cards, 9 pair cards, 3 tens giving you an OESD, and 6 aces or nines giving you one-way straight draw. That's 27 cards, or more than half the deck, that can improve your hand. I can see a preference for no more than 3-5 of those cards being dead, with no more than one of your suit, none of your door card (so you can better present trips if you pair it), and no tens being dead.

Zee places three consecutive high straight flush cards as better than a small pair or a razzy low. My guess is that he is probably correct there in that this hand can stand more action on third street and can better handle taking a card off on fourth if you brick. Is anyone disputing Zee's ordering of hands?

I think that this hand probably plays best when it is going up in a multiway pot against passive players who always play any pair and razz-y lows with little or no straight or flush possibilities. On fourth street, I think you can afford to take a card off if you know you won't get jammed.

[HOWMANY]

I usually fold these and I don't particularly like being in situations where I think I have to play them.

[Voltaire]

I found it hard to believe that Zee would make such a recommendation, so I doubled checked. He did. I guess we have to be very clear about what "live" means. For my money that would mean none of your cards were out and none of your suit and none of the cards you need to make a straight! With that very restrictive proviso, I would say, yes, you can play three high straight flush cards in 8 or better stud.

Uh, don't hold your breath for that opportunity.

Now if the ace is up, that's a different story because not only is it unclear whether you're going high or low (duh) but if you catch a baby you can represent. How sweet it is if the baby is of the same suit!

[Big Dave D]

Well I guess one answer is that Zee was wrong?

Another answer might be in that games where people are overplaying their weak highs, like some of the games online, then they will become much stronger.

But like, they are category 7 hands...and weren't they in order of strength?

gl

bdd