Please can I just win one hand 10/20 2-7

HOWMANY · #1 09-10-2007, 01:31 PM

First hand at the table, unknown villain

Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit ($10/$20) (.com/greenage22/Triple_Draw/Converter.html]converter)

SB ($1284.50), Seat 2
Hero ($500), Seat 3
UTG ($304.50), Seat 5
CO ($1634), Seat 6
Button ($258), Seat 1

Button at Seat 1.
SB posts $5. Hero posts $10.

Hand: [Qh As 2h 3h 4h]

Round 1: (1.50 SB)

UTG raises. CO folds. Button folds. SB folds. Hero calls. 
Hero discards Qh As. UTG takes 2.

Hand: [2h 3h 4h Th 7c]

Round 2: (4.50 SB)

Hero bets. UTG calls. 
Hero discards Th. UTG takes 2.

Hand: [2h 3h 4h 7c 9s]

Round 3: (3.25 BB)

Hero bets. UTG raises. Hero calls. 
Hero stands pat. UTG stands pat.

Hand: [2h 3h 4h 7c 9s]

Round 4: (7.25 BB)

Hero checks. UTG bets. Hero?

*TT* · #2 09-10-2007, 01:44 PM

your 9 is no good, dump it when he raises. Remember your out of position.

iron81 · #3 09-10-2007, 01:48 PM

I dunno. Villain was drawing two so he could think hero was betting while still drawing on round 3. I'll sometimes raise a T or a worse 9 in villains spot. I like calling and patting round 3. I lean toward folding the river though because no one value bets a T when the other guy is pat.

*TT* · #4 09-10-2007, 03:07 PM

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I dunno. Villain was drawing two so he could think hero was betting while still drawing on round 3. I'll sometimes raise a T or a worse 9 in villains spot.

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think distribution of hands. Your 2.7:1 vs the a better 9 (hero's 9 is kinda sucky), and you can probably make up the bets you lost by calling on the river. Don't be blinded by your opponent's draw 2, people get there. If your options are pat-call raise - fold to a river bet or draw 1 card, drawing 1 card is the equitable decision.

iron81 · #5 09-10-2007, 03:19 PM

I think you're being too generous with 2.7:1. If we're breaking a 9 its because we're pretty sure an 8-7 is no good so we need to make a 7. If we need to make a 7, its a small pot so we don't have the odds to break. Personally, I'd rather 3 bet/pat round 3 than call/break because villain will likely break an 8-7 if we 3 bet/pat.

The problem with 3 betting is that then we have to check the river which turns our hand face up as weak regardless of whether we got villain to break. This means we have to pay off a bet

InWithTheBest · #6 09-10-2007, 03:35 PM

Against agressive players that will raise any two-drawn jack or better in this it's a leak to break this 9.. The problem is how to play after he raises, because against this type of player if you 3 bet and he 4 bets his cap doesn't mean much. If you just call and stand pat you are going to be in a lot of gross river spots. I think your line is okay, but unless hes really tricky you should fold.

iron81 · #7 09-10-2007, 03:48 PM

Sounds ok to me. Call/pat>fold>3-bet>break.

*TT* · #8 09-10-2007, 04:03 PM

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I think you're being too generous with 2.7

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this isnt an estimate, its a mathematical fact. Explore Mark's calculator to save some time instead of doing the calculations by hand, its a good convenience. Vs any hand that is a perfect 9 or better hero is 4:1 against improving to a winning hand. Keep in mind that if you peel, catch another 9 and call its the exact same thing as standing pat with the 9.

[ QUOTE ]
If we're breaking a 9 its because we're pretty sure an 8-7 is no good so we need to make a 7. If we need to make a 7, its a small pot so we don't have the odds to break.

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1) you have the odds to break, its not a small pot. Your getting 6:1 in a situation where your 4:1 against improving to the winner (or 2.7 or so against to improving to a hand better than a 9) plus there is the added benefit of implied odds - nice overlay!

2) you break a 9 because its a bad 9, not because you think the opponent has a 7 or an 8. 97234 is a rough hand. Of course it could be rougher, but its rough. There are more 9's that he will raise that beat us than we will beat.

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Personally, I'd rather 3 bet/pat round 3 than call/break because villain will likely break an 8-7 if we 3 bet/pat.

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villain isn't going to break a hand that we beat, your 3-bet is spewing. I love to play against opponents who 3-bet here with a 97xxx, its burning money.

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The problem with 3 betting is that then we have to check the river which turns our hand face up as weak regardless of whether we got villain to break. This means we have to pay off a bet

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you put yourself in that situation by 3-betting. If he bets the river after you 3-bet then you are a nearly guaranteed loser in the hand, your just donating another bet to the opponent.

IWTB is right that always breaking the 9 here is bad, there are opponents I'd be hesitant to break against even though it is mathematically the correct line is to break because its exploitable. Baring any read that tells me I should stand pat breaking is the optimal play.

MarkGritter · #9 09-10-2007, 04:32 PM

I strongly disagree, the bet-call-break line is a horrible one to apply by default. You give your opponent way too much motivation to raise with air. As I argued here: http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...itter0807.html

The dead out calculator can, I think, be a little misleading in that your opponent won't have a range that is "perfect 9 or better"--- he has some specific subset based on what 1-card draw he had. Suppose your opponent had 5432 and would raise a 7, 8, 9, or T. You are 20% to win by drawing. But you are almost 29% to win by standing pat!

Another example: if he has 7632, and raises 4,5,8, and 9, then you are again about 20% to win by drawing. But you are 21% to win by patting. The implied odds push that to a draw. Now suppose he raises a T as well. Now you are 24% to win by drawing but about 39% to win by patting!

Against straightforward opponents you can take the draw (assuming you have odds so that folding isn't correct). Against tricky or aggressive players you simply cannot afford to do so.

DeathDonkey · #10 09-10-2007, 04:48 PM

Thanks Mark for some sanity. IWTB covered it too. HOWMANY just like when you have ace high in holdem embrace the showdown monkey in you and call, pat, check/call. It's not very exploitable and you don't spew like some recommendations in this thread.

TT I damn well know that if you held this hand and I were the villain you would never break.

-DeathDonkey