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#1
06-23-2007, 03:32 PM
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cheeky raise?
PP 10/20 6max, relatively soft table (I luv week ends...)
UTG = 'normal' TAG UTG+1 = loose, passive UTG raises, UTG+1 coldcalls, I call in BB w 44 Flop T 9 3 rainbow Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls Anybody bets or check-raises this flop? Turn 9, two spades Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises Standard raise or cheeky/spewing? Also, comments welcome if u take a different line altogether [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] 
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#2
06-23-2007, 03:40 PM
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Re: cheeky raise?
Please fold the flop. You do realize that money is a good thing right?
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#4
06-23-2007, 06:52 PM
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Re: cheeky raise?
Preaction: Details matter. Do you have a spade or not? Learn to recognize all the important information that should go into making decisions.
Flop: I call because I'm closing the action. It's a close decision and I'd fold if I didn't feel confident in my ability to handle the turn and river. Turn: The second nine creates an opportunity. Betting through UTG puts him in an unbearable situation if he has overcards or even a small pair such as 55 or A3s because the third player could have anything. This is the last money barring a four on the river. If your hand is good you should win immediately or at least get a free showdown. Checkfolding is a very good alternative. If your hand is good it's likely that no one will bet. Checking and calling HU is dubious because UTG is unlikely to bet overcards again after being called twice. He would check and hope the passive player checks too. Checking and overcalling is really bad. UTG+1 may not have anything but he usually does by now. Both opponents are substantial favorites over you so it will be rare to be ahead of both. Even when you are ahead they have about a million outs (overcards, paired board, and probably a pat draw too). Checkraising both opponents is horrible and shows no comprehension of your situation. Even if it happens to work as it will once in a great while.
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#5
06-23-2007, 07:09 PM
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Re: cheeky raise?
stellarwind there is no way that UTG+1's range is substantially ahead of 44 (ur equity is better than pokerstove says bc a T isnt an out for J8) which is the whole point of the play. if the tag is good he should fold pretty much everything to the CR bc hero (from villains perspective where hero is generic 10/20 tag) nearly always has a nine
whether or not u have a spade makes no difference betting is bad bc the tag can own u with a free showdown raise, u dont get a chance to bluff tag off a hand and u dont get to see if the fish takes an aggressive action
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#6
06-23-2007, 08:57 PM
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Re: cheeky raise?
Thx for detailed thoughts and replies
Glad to see the hand/my play generated opposite reactions by two better players (was taking shots, mainly 3/6 5/10 player). At least it doesn t seem to be a clear-cut decision. Not to be result-oriented but I took it down with the raise. I had a pretty TAG/almost nitty image and had not shwon any fancy move before, so it just felt like the right spot. I put UTG on overcards anc capable of folding and I put LP on Ax (was fearing AsXs tho) or small PP as I had seen him coldcall and peel easily with this range
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#7
06-24-2007, 01:46 AM
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Re: cheeky raise?
[ QUOTE ]
stellarwind there is no way that UTG+1's range is substantially ahead of 44 (ur equity is better than pokerstove says bc a T isnt an out for J8) which is the whole point of the play. if the tag is good he should fold pretty much everything to the CR bc hero (from villains perspective where hero is generic 10/20 tag) nearly always has a nine [/ QUOTE ] 1. I don't understand how you are doing the reads. Villain is a "normal" TAG so you can't assume he is especially good. If he is good you can't assume his read on Hero is as shallow as "generic 10/20 TAG". 2. The flop is rainbow and the T9 are ideal for pairing typical defending and coldcalling hands. When the flop is called in two places his overcards become a big underdog and there is little reason to bet them again on the turn. It makes much more sense to check and let the passive player give him a free card. UTG's turn bet shows a hand that beats 44 most of the time. Similarly when UTG+1 calls again the odds go way up that he actually has something. Is it possible that 44 is the best hand after the turn goes check-bet-call? Absolutely. Is it likely? No, it's a parlay of two things that are themselves against the odds. 3. Your remark about J8 and a ten not being an out implies betting the river at least some of the time. 2-3 BB trying to steal this pot seems like a huge commitment. It has to be better to lead the turn if you want to steal. Not only does this cost only 1 BB, but many of the oppsoing hands you can actually fold are the same ones that will give themselves a free card if you check. 4. UTG's made hands are full houses, big nines, overpairs, big tens, and third pairs. If you catch a third pair with your checkraise I'll bet you knock it out. The rest of his made hands are almost certain to take you to showdown. There is a lot of room to play this hand. If you actually know something about your opponents (we got almost nothing) then you can build a case for a whole lot of different plays.
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#8
06-24-2007, 02:25 AM
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Re: cheeky raise?
Please fold flop. Having not folded flop, for gods sake fold turn.
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#9
06-24-2007, 05:36 AM
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Re: cheeky raise?
Not sure why stellarwind got a bit rude in his first post but anyway I totally agree with all he is saying here. I do think its clearcut, a turncheckraise is bad for those reasons Stellarwind says.
On a flop like this u should think a little like when u get freplay in BB at a NL-table and flop somethink like middlepair, no kicker. There is a decent chance u are ahead but if pot gets big u are behind. So u should focus on trying to take down the pot while its still small. In this hand: Either donk flop or checkcall as long as there is no raise. If u checkcall flop, donk turn if u like the turncard. In this hand I would often donk flop because its so perfect to have the LP guy behind the TAG because TAG will (rightly) have to think we got some sort of hand and LP stops him from (semi)bluffing us. In this hand, I would donk-fold turn even if both called my flopbet, its so perfect. But normally u should just give up. * Also, if our poster got a really TAG image u should use this headsup agaisnt the other TAG and attack with ur draws on turn, dont destroy ur image against the LP.
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#10
06-24-2007, 01:10 PM
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Re: cheeky raise?
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why stellarwind got a bit rude in his first post [/ QUOTE ] Hmmm, maybe I was [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. Sorry Babar if I got carried away. I didn't mean anything by it.
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