How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe

[BobJoeJim]

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I think if I quit my job and worked out everyday with the intention of making the show, I could probably hit .050/.070/.065 in three years.

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I'll slot you in to hit 6th.

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Oh brilliant. Hardest I've laughed in a week!

[dlk9s]

Obviously, Darko knows what the hell he is talking about.

I found this point interesting, and very truthful:

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Most big league pitchers were once hitters at one point in their career. What makes them "fail" is that they lose the skill movements necessary to get to the ball b/c they aren't doing it everyday anymore--they are throwing everyday instead.

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I didn't play past high school (side note: I felt I could have played in college, but my HS coach was such a dick that I actually didn't want to play for a year. Once I wanted to play again, I was too involved in other things....but I digress), but actually did have experience with what Darko was talking about.

I was a pitcher, but obviously, as is the case 99% of the time, I hit, as well. I was a good hitter - hit in the .300's freshman year, .500 sophomore year (no power, though). When I was on varsity, the coach did not let pitchers hit. I never even got to take a token batting practice for two years.

Senior year, we had an intrasquad scrimmage and the coach actually let all the pitchers hit for themselves. I batted against one of the harder throwers on the team - mostly just a fastball pitcher, so I knew what was coming. My eye for hitting was still there, but to my horror (ok, maybe horror is an exaggeration), I had absolutely no bat speed. I probably wasn't even done swinging on the first pitch until the ball was back to the pitcher. At that point, I decided to just swing as soon as the pitcher released the ball and hope to adjust my swing for the pitch location. Somehow, I got lucky and hit a high-outside fastball down the right field line for a double.

I finally got one AB in a real game and fortunately, the pitcher threw slowly enough where my bat speed wasn't a problem. I still hit it the opposite way, but hit a nice line drive single. Thus, my varsity BA was 1.000.

[tdarko]

Lazy Meatball,

A little history on the Can-Am league--formerly the Northeast League--that you won't get from Wiki.

About a dozen guys are signed to affiliated ball each year, I was in 2004. Everyone who signs goes to either High A or Double A--some have gone to AAA and played in the big leagues.

There are about 2-4 former big leaguers on every team.

The majority of the league is guys that were once in affiliated ball that were released and are using the league as an outlet to get back into affiliated ball. That is the beauty of independent ball that is why this quote from the wiki is retarded:

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The league also caters to players who are not quite talented enough to play at a higher level.

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It isn't accurate b/c well over 90% of the league has played organized/affiliated ball, many of the players are plenty good enough to be on AA/AAA rosters but what many people just don't realize is that talent isn't the only thing that gets you on a AAA roster---luck, money invested, lack of depth at your position--plenty of other reasons as well. This league is the equivalent of AA baseball most nights and High A some other nights for a season and you get paid better than when I was playing in the Yankees and the Royals organization. So you stay sharp and get paid while you are trying to get another chance and some do.

There are some outstanding independent leagues that put way better talent on the field than most minor league teams.

There are also some [censored] independent leagues, depends on which ones we are talking about.

The best are in order:

1. Atlantic (AAA/Big League)
2. Can-Am (Like MicroBob said mostly AA, occasionally High A)
2. Northern (Northeast/Can-Am and Northern used to be one league years ago but split for travel reasons, both leagues are great)
3. American-Association (Can range from low-A to AA)

These leagues have a ton of talent in them.

Also don't say affiliated w/ the Majors b/c that isn't how it works. You a Boston fan? The Red Sox are an organization. Here is the proper terminology:

There is Rookie ball, Short season A ball, Low-A, High A, AA, AAA, and then the big leagues or major leagues.

Each is affiliated w/ the organization.

So if you play AAA baseball for Pawtucket you say you play affiliated ball--someone then asks what organization--you say Boston. You are a minor-league player until you are a major league player--everything is associated w/ the Major League Baseball Association though.


I just wanted to make this post b/c I think Bob and Kyle can back me up on this--Independent ball is seriously misunderstood. I know a ton of players that came from AAA that were big organizational prospects that looked down upon it until they realized how competitive and good the leagues are--I mean I came from affiliated ball and thought of it as a demotion too until a week in when I realized I was playing at a higher level than when I was in organized ball. The problem is is that the general public isn't educated on it, they only understand the Boston Red Sox and that there is a farm system to groom players but they don't really understand the intricacies and how everything works.

[Spence]

Well might as well post my response. Darko, do you really believe that managers aren't worried about a pitchers arm getting worn down over a season if he plays in the field? I don't disagree with the idea that they want to focus on one facet of the game so they can be the best they can at it, but to just say "wrong" when that of course figures in to the reasoning I don't think is right.

And microbob, i never said pitcher's would or should actually spend their four lighter days working on their hitting. I was just pointing out that there is plenty of time to work on both if one was so inclined.

[IlliniLou]

so tdarko, you have played with some big leaguers then? who have you played with? Do you still play? It was my dream to go on and pitch but i tore a ligament in my pitching elbow and never got it fixed due to various reasons

[onlinebeginner]

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I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats.

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You underestimate just how much luck there is on balls in play.

Obviously you're also partially claiming the Average Joe (c) won't get many balls in play, but I could swing blindfolded for a thousand times and get a couple of hits...

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ur ridiculous... BLINDFOLDED and UR NOT A PRO PLAYER

[tdarko]

Spence,

I guess if you play for some crap team then I can see where you are coming from.

Let me give you a real example to try and explain myself better:

I played with Shane Komine at Nebraska. He pitches in the bigs for the A's now, unfortunately he has had a ton of health issues and surgeries--which we will get to--or he would be a more effective big leaguer...more on that...

He is regarded as one of the greatest collegiate pitchers of all-time, one of like 3 ever to have 40 wins and 500 K's and he completely turned an entire program around. He never lost a Friday night game--just imagine that. He is listed at 5'8 but he is shorter. Now, you have the best ace pitcher in the country, take care of him right? Wrong, coaches don't care about you, they care about getting the most out of you. He threw the crap out of him, he hardly ever went less than 8 and he threw a ton of CG's--his pitch counts were crazy.

In 2002 he was throwing 96-97 in our Jan indoor workouts. By the end of the month he was throwing 88-90 and complaining that his low back and shoulder hurt. He was getting lidocaine injections before his starts and he ended up having surgery on his labrum after the season. Fortunately, Shane can flat-out pitch and didn't need a mid-nineties fastball to win and we went to the CWS--mostly on his bad back. He has since had Tommy John surgery as well and Dr. Andrews (best arm doc in the country) said he had a ton of old scar tissue and wear and tear.

The reason it didn't matter if he got hurt is b/c at a big program in the Big XII or any big conference for that matter, if your ace goes down--there is another stud ready to step right up. Shane was probably irreplaceable, but just like Texas, Baylor, A&M and OSU we had a deep staff and could have won w/o him as well too.

FWIW, I was a two-way guy to start out my college career but they could see my hitting suffering a little b/c of pitching so I put the ball down until my senior year when I was told to start pitching to try and get drafted. This post could get real long about my experiences being a two-way guy in college but I don't really want to get into it.

The point of this post was really to try and show that nothing else matters but getting the most of the player, injury doesn't matter, feelings don't matter. And most of the time two-way guys don't work out, it is really tough to be good at both, this is why you don't see it very often. Coaches recruit pitchers and they recruit position players.

[siccjay]

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darko, did you ever play college baseball? College coaches DO worry about injuring a stud pitcher. It's ridiculous that you're even arguing that they don't. A pitcher playing the field puts more strain on the arm, and there is ALWAYS a chance for a fluke injury.

Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level. Pitchers go in a cycle based on when they are expected to pitch against live hitting, whether that be in an actual game or simply a simulated game with teammates. Sure on the 1 day out of 5 you are pitching in a game you will not have a chance to hone your skills at the plate. The other 4 days there is PLENTY of time to work on your hitting if one was so inclined. I'll go in to more detail if you really don't believe me, but anybody who has played at that level should realize that there is PLENTY of time for a pitcher to work on his hitting.

I agree with the majority of your second paragraph. Most pitchers are very good athletes and have great muscle memory.

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This is good stuff. No need to even respond.

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lolerskates

[MicroBob]

Agree that indy-ball is very much misunderstood compared with affiliated ball.

The other aspect of indy-ball that should very much appeal to the fans is that it's highly competitive.

In affiliated ball the emphasis is on developing the prospects first and there is less of an emphasis on actually winning. This can depend on the organizational philosophy though.

But usually you're not going to have as many Tony LaRussa style 3 pitching-change innings where each guy faces one batter in the 8th as you try to get it to your closer or whatever.
Your starter gets tired, you bring in a reliever, that's the game-plan.
Your 20 year-old 1st-rounder outfielder is batting .140, he's still going to start everyday even though there's a guy on the bench who can clearly hit better but is a bit older and slower and not a young prospect with a super-high ceiling.


In indy-ball the players are hoping to get noticed of course and there are scouts in the stands. But the teams and managers are there to WIN and that's the whole emphasis.
So that top guy you picked up at the beginning of the season who's only hitting .140 is going to get benched pretty quick.
And defensive studs in the middle-infield are awfully important imo. Not enough stick to be much of a prospect in a big-league organization. But turning some really nice double-plays in the indy-leagues is huge in a team's efforts to actually win ball-games.

And, as tdarko alluded to, they aren't going to give a crap about over-using somebody's arm. You either came to pitch or not. You aren't there to be babied through the season.

The competitiveness is also why there can be more bench-clearing brawls in the indy-leagues imo as well as the fact that they are already a bit renegade to begin with.

FWIW - When TDarko mentions major-league guys on the roster a lot of those players will be the types to have only played 1 or 2 months in the big leagues...while perhaps others were around for parts of 3 or 4 seasons.
But you also have veterans like Oil Can Boyd and Jose Canseco, etc who hit those leagues too.
Pete Rose Jr, Bill Pulsipher, Edgardo Alfonzo and Jose Offerman of the famous mound-charging sportscenter highlight were all on the Long Island Ducks of the Atlantic League this yr which is probably a notch higher than the CanAm League.

I saw a guy like OF Curtis Goodwin play for the Berkshire Black Bears in the Northeast/CanAm league in 2002.
And the team I was with in Elmira, NY featured hometown boy Greg Keagle as a starter and pitching coach. 3 lousy seasons with DET in the 90's and then 6 seasons with Elmira including a no-hitter. Hey, his big-league numbers may have been bad but he actually made it up there for 3 seasons and not many people can say that.

Later that season Elmira picked up cast-off outfielder Michael Coleman who had played parts of 3 seasons for BOS and NYY but was mostly stuck in AAA.
He was getting frustrated with his lack of playing time with AAA Pawtucket in the Red Sox organization so came to our team in August and hit some monster HR's.

So a lot of the major-leaguers tdarko is referring to are going to be guys you're only going to vaguely remember if at all.

But they're still major-league ball-players and when you see them you can usually tell just by looking at them play how they were able to make it as far as they did in the first place.

[MicroBob]

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