shorthanded sit'n'go play

[T. Chance]

This is my first post in the stud section and this is going to be pretty long. I hope this won't be boring though. I think if I get good answers, it might be helpful to a lot of people.
I like to play different kinds of poker, and I'm more a tournament player than a cash game player, so I like to play Horse sit'n'goes.
My result are quite good in $5 tournaments, but not as good in $10 tournaments.
Anyway, I think one of the big leaks in my game is that I have trouble playing the different sort of stud when the game becomes shorthanded and the antes are high. I'm doing well full ring and 3 handed too, but I have trouble adjusting my play to 4 or 5 handed games (maybe it's also a bubble problem, but i don't have this problem in other games).

I played one of these earlier. We got four-handed at he end of Omaha hi/lo and my stack looked decent. However by the end of stud hi/lo I had lost most of it.
I don't know if I played too tight, or if I did pass on some stealing opportunity, or if there was just nothing else to do.
Here are the hands I had to play. Do you think I missed some stealing oppotunities ?

I'll call villain the guy on my left, who was extremely loose and extremely agressive.
The player on his right was tighter, but liked to pick up fights against villain, and won a lot of chips overall doing so.
The player on my right was much tighter and played very few hands.
(I'm sorry if this is not pleasant to read, but using a converter didn't seem appropriate).

Razz (150/300 ante 25)
Seat 3: villain (3,050)
Seat 5: other guy (2,235)
Seat 6: tight guy (4,098)
Seat 8: hero (2,617)

1. K brings in, J folds, 8 calls, I complete with 3-7-2, K folds, 8 calls
Fourth street, I pair my 7, and tight guy gets a Q. I bet, he folds.

2. Q brings in, 2 limps, 3 folds, I have A-7-A and I fold.
Should I steal in spite of the limp ?

3. K brings in, 5 folds, I complete with 4-6-8, 7 folds, K folds.

4. 8 brings in, 3 fold, villain shows a 7, I fold 2-3-2.

5. Q brings in, 3 fold, villain shows a J, I fold K-T-T.

6. I bring in with 4-2-K, 9 folds, 7 completes, 2 calls, I fold.

7. I bring in with 5-A-Q, 4 completes, T folds, 6 folds.

8. K brings in, 9 folds, villain shows a 9, I fold K-K-Q.

9. K brings in, K folds, I complete with 2-A-8, T calls, K calls.
fourth street, I catch a J, villain catches a 7, K catches a 8. Villain bet, we both call.
Fifth street, I catch another J, The K-8 catched a Q, and villain a K and bets again. We both fold.
I guess I should have folded on fourth.

9. I bring in with 9-7-T, T folds, 2 completes, 7 calls, I fold.

10. I bring in with 7-7-Q, T completes, 8 call, 2 fold, I fold.

11. K brings in, one 8 and one 9 to speak after me, I fold 3-J-7.

12. I bring in with Q-6-Q. A completes, T fold, 7 folds, I fold.

13. T brings in, I complete with 7-3-5, 7 calls, A folds.
Fourth street, villain catches a 6 and bet. I catch a K and fold.

Stud (200/400 ante 30) my stack is down to 2.017.

1. 2 brings in, I fold 7-6-A, with A and 2 after me.

2. 8 brings in, T and A after me, I fold A-8-T.
Should I consider that, the fact I have an A and a T means they're less likely to have a pair, or that I have 3 dead outs ?

3. I bring in with 8-6-2, A completes, Q calls, 2 folds, I fold.

4. 5 brings in, there's an 8 and a 5 after me, I complete with A-2-Q.

5. I bring in with 5-9-6, T fold, A complete, 7 folds, I fold

6. 3 brings in, , 9 fold, villain shows an 8, I fold 2-8-6.

7. 3 brings in, I complete with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K raises, J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] folds.
Fourth street, I catch a queen, villain gets an ace and bet again. I fold.

8. 4 brings in, two nines after me, I fold A-9-5.

9. 2 brings in, 8 limps in, I limp with 5-A-5, 2 limps in as well.
Fourth street, the bring in pair his 2 and bets out, the 8 catches a J and call, I catch a 6 and I fold.

10. 2 brings in, 5 folds, villain shows a K, I fold 9-J-6.

11. 5 brings in, 7 folds, villain also shows a 7, I fold J-2-6.

12. 2 brings in, a 5 and a 6 after me, I fold T-8-4.

12. 2 brings in, T folds, villain shows a 6, I fold 9-Q-2.

As we reach stud hi/lo I'm down to 1,247 chips.

Well, I'm gonna take a break, because it's getting late here In Europe. I'll do the same for stud hi/lo tomorrow.
Feel free to comment this. I really don't know where I could have won chips, even though I know where I could have saved some.

Thanks

[chucky]

Hand 9 stud high. I dont fold 4th. odds are pretty low that 2 has trips. I might even complete 3rd.
Hand 7 stud hi. dont complete. you want everyone in the pot.

Hand 13 razz. dont fold 4th.

Overall: be ready for AndyB's head to asplode.

[T. Chance]

Thanks for replying, I'm sorry if it's not pleasant to read. I couldn't think of a better way to write this. It was quite boring to write too, but I really thought it might be instructive when I started it. I'll try to make up for it in my future threads.

I agree that the hands you comment are questionable. I'm not so sure there's a clear play there. Here's what I was thinking at the time.
Hand 9 stud. I don't think the 2 has trips either, but I think the J-8 has a better pair. He's been quite tight and passive, so even when he limped, I thought he was very likely to have a pair, that's why I didn't complete 3rd. On fourth, I'm getting 4:1 odds, with 8 outs and 42 card left so my odds against improving are 4.5:1, and someone might still catch better than me. So I don't think it's such a bad fold. Maybe it's weak-tight to assume that J8 have a pair here, though.

Hand 7 stud : I would limp that hand full ring, but here I was mostly trying to find an opportunity to steal the antes, so I could breath a little. Besides, villain was showing a K and would reraise if I limp almost every time, while he might fold to a bet. Maybe I was wrong here. I don't know if stealing the antes was that important.

Hand 13 razz : I know villain is very agressive, but he has called my bet and I brick while he's showing 7-6. Is it really correct to call a bet on fourth when you brick and your opponent doesn't seem to, and the pot is not huge ?

By the way I forgot to mention, in case it's relevant, that it was a $10 SNG on Full Tilt.

And now for something completely different : the stud 8 hands. Stud 8 is not my strong game, so I might have made more mistakes here.

1. 2 brings in, 9 folds, I complete with 8-6-7, J calls, 2 folds.
Fourth J catches a 6 and I catch a K. Both check.
Fifth I catch a J, villain a 5. I check he bets, I fold.
I think I really misplayed that one. I'm probably folding the best hand. I'm down to 957 with stakes 250/500 ante 40.

2. 2 brings in, 3 limps in, I fold A-8-J, villain is showing an A.

3. 4 brings in, A completes, 8 calls, I fold 9-7-J.

4. I bring in with K-8-6, 9 completes, T and K fold.

5. I bring in with 9-K-5, 6 completes, 9 folds, K calls, I fold.

6. 4 brings in, 7 folds, A fold, I fold A-2-K. Is that a good fold ? I'm very likely to have the best hand here, right ? My stack is 647 at that point. Is that a good hand to risk my whole tournament on ?

7. I bring in with 9-Q-6, everybody folds.

8. 2 brings in, I see a J and a K after me and I fold 7-K-T.

9. 3 brings in, K folds, Q folds, I fold K-7-5. Should I try to steal here ?

10. 2 brings in, 4 calls, villain shows a 3, I fold 3-T-5.

11. 3 brings in, 4 calls, villain's door card is a J, I fold 9-T-5.

12. 3 brings in, 6 folds, villain has a 5, I fold A-7-J.

13. I bring in with J-T-3, 8 completes, 8 calls, K folds, I fold.


We've now reached the end of Stud 8, and I'm down to 412 chips. I won't bother you with hold'em.

Once again the question, is pretty much the same. Did I pass on stealing opportunities here ?

How do you loosen your starting requirement in these shorthanded, shortstacked situations ? What kind of hands suddenly looks better ? I'm especially wondering about stud 8.

[mshalen]

In general as the number of players goes down so do your starting hand requirements. The hands that you posted show what can happen if you just sit and wait for good hands.

The Razz hands that you posted:
#2 Raise
#7 Call and hope he bricks and you catch, if not then fold
#11 Raise

If I remember correctly, in Razz you will catch 3 unpaired cards 8 or less only about 16% of the time. Razz is the easiest game to steal since a low board will scare off many opponents. When you are down to only a few players the odds are they are raising with what in a full ring game would be marginal hands.

I also have a hard time when playing short handed stud.

In stud 8, when short handed, the value of high hands goes way up and the value of low hands that need to catch goes way down. Many of these hands are won on 4th or 5th when a player going low catches bad and you are betting a high hand.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for replying, I'm sorry if it's not pleasant to read. I couldn't think of a better way to write this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Use the converter. Not only to keep Andy's head from exploding and to get more comment from people, but why would you take the time to write all that out when the converter will do it in seconds, make it much easier to read and let us all see the development of the hand in an easy gestalt?

Now go download the converter and practice with it a few times. And send a case of beer to the ones who waded through this and gave you their opinions.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
When you are down to only a few players the odds are they are raising with what in a full ring game would be marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
In cash games, I agree. In tournaments, late in the tourny with the limits being so high, they are usually raising with premium hands, it's much too expensive to play if the bring-in has A2 in the hole and decides to challenge.