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#1
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Re: And so we continue...
okay so i raise A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from the SB, they all call.
Flop(6sb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] it's on me, i bet, they both call. Turn(4.5bb): Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] it's on me again. i obv. bet obv. BB folds, button calls. River(6.5bb): 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] i check, he bets, i call. nothing is standard in poker. that being said, this is a typically aggressive opponent. my "standard" line with a good(not great) hand when first to act on the river against a typically aggressive opponent is as follows. on a board with multiple draws present, and the primary draw misses but a possible secondary draw completes, i check and call. i do this because this type of guy bets more hands than he calls with. as a result, this collects value from the busted draws that would fold if i bet in addition to the worse made hands(while simultaneously losing less when behind since i can't bet/fold). these aggressive opponents will valuebet/valuebluff/bluff close to all worse hands that would call a bet. these guys will often feel inclined to widen their betting range and fire on the scare card as well since, based on previous action, there is such a tremendously low probability that i had one of the draws that came in(in this case the straight draw). it's not like i'm against a good or passive player that will only bet when i'm crushed. also, if this opponent's aggression level was higher, this would be a decent spot to bet with the intention of inducing a bluffraise. while i'm not saying this opponent isn't capable of bluffraising, the frequency with which he(specifically) would do it versus the frequency he's raising a completed draw is too low to attempt it. |
#2
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Re: And so we continue...
[ QUOTE ]
on a board with multiple draws present, and the primary draw misses but a possible secondary draw completes, i check and call. [/ QUOTE ] This has a lot to think about...or maybe I'm just a noob. |
#3
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Re: And so we continue...
[ QUOTE ]
Checking looks suspicious and might result in the flop checking through. [/ QUOTE ] Why is that a bad thing? Especially if we agree on the principles that, A) neither opponent is ever folding a better hand than your AQ, and, 2) that neither opponent is ever folding a halfway decent draw. And by "halfway decent" I'm including things like gutshots or 2 good overs. As far as the turn goes, obviously bet, especially since you led the flop & nobody played back at you. I like bet/call on the river, although I could easily be convinced to bet/fold if BB raises. I think that BB calls 1 bet with more hands you beat than he overcalls with, and I doubt that BTN is folding any pair or even a weaker ace. |
#4
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Re: And so we continue...
We are heads up on the river with Btn, Harv.
I like a b/c. Btn would have popped that flop with a 7. |
#5
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Re: And so we continue...
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We are heads up on the river with Btn, Harv. I like a b/c. Btn would have popped that flop with a 7. [/ QUOTE ] My bad, that'll teach me to try answering from memory. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Yeah, I like bet/call based on the opponent. |
#6
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Re: And so we continue...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Checking looks suspicious and might result in the flop checking through. [/ QUOTE ] Why is that a bad thing? Especially if we agree on the principles that, A) neither opponent is ever folding a better hand than your AQ, and, 2) that neither opponent is ever folding a halfway decent draw. And by "halfway decent" I'm including things like gutshots or 2 good overs. [/ QUOTE ] If you're talking about the flop, isn't the benefit of them (or one of them) calling with their junk outweighing the downsides of your two points? |
#7
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Re: And so we continue...
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If you're talking about the flop, isn't the benefit of them (or one of them) calling with their junk outweighing the downsides of your two points? [/ QUOTE ] If we believe that we are in fact ahead a significant portion of the time, and/or that one or more of them will call our flop bet with a weaker hand/unprofitable draw a significant portion of the time, then yes. But my opinion is that neither of these are often the case after a flop like this, nor is it at all likely that either of them will fold a better hand to our bet. I think we're much better off allowing them to either let us draw for free or to make a bluff with one of those worse hands, especially if we can then isolate on that bluff with a check/raise. Or to allow them to bet, rather than raise our bet, with a made hand. |
#8
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Re: And so we continue...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Checking looks suspicious and might result in the flop checking through. [/ QUOTE ] Why is that a bad thing? Especially if we agree on the principles that, A) neither opponent is ever folding a better hand than your AQ, and, 2) that neither opponent is ever folding a halfway decent draw. And by "halfway decent" I'm including things like gutshots or 2 good overs. [/ QUOTE ] i agree a better hand is close to never folding. but any hand with outs that folds is a good thing. more importantly, why don't you want to collect bets from worse hands with "decent" draws that are willing to pay to play? so in answer to your question, "why is that a bad thing"(in ref. to the flop checking through), because we lose value! if they want to call, fine. if they want to fold, fine. i don't think my money goes in significantly different(in terms of equity dog or fave) by betting versus c/r. betting just makes SURE it goes in. as for the ranges, i took the top 50% taking out premium holdings or anything that they would raise/3bet pf. for the bb it's conceivable i could have added more suited hands, but i don't think that it's a big deal for the overall outcome. my equity is pretty robust, and on that flop(this is key) alot of worse hands are calling. we had might as well realize it through betting. fwiw, i gave these ranges to my opponents: button(i think he raises anything better): 55-33,A4s-A2s,K9s-K2s,Q9s-Q2s,J3s+,T5s+,95s+,86s+,75s+,65s,A5o-A2o,K9o-K4o,QTo-Q6o,J7o+,T7o+,98o,87o big blind: JJ-22,A9s-A2s,KTs-K2s,Q2s+,J3s+,T5s+,95s+,85s+,75s+,65s,ATo-A2o,KJo-K4o,Q6o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o |
#9
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Re: And so we continue...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Checking looks suspicious and might result in the flop checking through. [/ QUOTE ] Why is that a bad thing? Especially if we agree on the principles that, A) neither opponent is ever folding a better hand than your AQ, and, 2) that neither opponent is ever folding a halfway decent draw. And by "halfway decent" I'm including things like gutshots or 2 good overs. [/ QUOTE ] i agree a better hand is close to never folding. but any hand with outs that folds is a good thing. more importantly, why don't you want to collect bets from worse hands with "decent" draws that are willing to pay to play? so in answer to your question, "why is that a bad thing"(in ref. to the flop checking through), because we lose value! if they want to call, fine. if they want to fold, fine. i don't think my money goes in significantly different(in terms of equity dog or fave) by betting versus c/r. betting just makes SURE it goes in. as for the ranges, i took the top 50% taking out premium holdings or anything that they would raise/3bet pf. for the bb it's conceivable i could have added more suited hands, but i don't think that it's a big deal for the overall outcome. my equity is pretty robust, and on that flop(this is key) alot of worse hands are calling. we had might as well realize it through betting. [/ QUOTE ] James: I understand what you are saying here about your equity being robust and all based on their preflop ranges and that board. I understand that. A bet going in on the flop, in general, is probably a good thing. But... On that particular board, you are getting raised here a pretty healthy percentage, imo. That board is unlikely to have hit you as the preflop raiser...so many will test you with their pair (not unlikely given loose open limp and BB call) decent draw, or (stretching a bit) overcards. Even when you don't get raised, you will be called in 2 spots a very high % of the time b/c if the flop didn't touch them..then they likely have 2 overs and will peel. So, on the flop, there is almost no chance of taking this down with a bet, a decent chance we get raised, highly probable that we get called in 2 spots (admittedly, we are quite often ahead in this situation). So, I can see that overall betting is probably best, but when we consider the turn. If we bet and get raised, then we are giving up on the turn without a Q or A. OK. If we bet the flop and get one caller, then we are likley betting most turn cards. OK. But I think there are tons of turn cards where we aren't getting folds, and then we are going to be in a spot on the river where we be putting in another bet on the river on a thin call. But what are we doing if we bet and get 2 callers and the turn is a K,J,T,9,8,7,3 or a diamond. Are we still betting the turn 3 way with any of those cards? Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think I am necessarily right here. And just b/c a hand is difficult to play doesn't mean we should take a more passive or "weaker" approach. But being out of position on that board sucks; lots of turn cards are gonna suck; and we have virtually no chance we can take the flop down with a bet. That makes me lean toward considering Harvs line even if and are passing up on a bit of value on the flop. -Rico |
#10
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Re: AQ SB Playalong
[ QUOTE ]
a 44/19/1.25 openlimps on the button, i'm in the sb with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. the big blind is sort of unknown but seems tightish and unspectacular. just so it's a complete play along what's our move? [/ QUOTE ] fold obv. What do I win? |
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