Biggest lie in the history of mankind

[Sephus]

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I don't see how others' happiness wouldn't be good when one's own is (generally).

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the point isn't that it would be, the point is that it could be.

[lucksack]

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but you want the laws in place because you think people "shouldn't" exploit animals, because the animals suffer and animals' suffering is bad. so it's natural for me to ask why people shouldn't do things that cause "bad," unless the bad is bad "for them."

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They can do but then they are "bad" (very selfish). And that's pretty common for people, that's why animal abuse continues.

[Sephus]

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but you want the laws in place because you think people "shouldn't" exploit animals, because the animals suffer and animals' suffering is bad. so it's natural for me to ask why people shouldn't do things that cause "bad," unless the bad is bad "for them."

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They can do but then they are "bad" (very selfish). And that's pretty common for people, that's why animal abuse continues.

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i'm not asking about whether thay can, i know they can. i'm asking about whether they should. you say they shouldn't because it causes bad. i'm saying why shouldn't they cause bad?

[Jetboy2]

Bacteria is the dominant and most superior of all life on the planet.

Bacteria was here before we arrived and will continue to exist once we're gone.

Us humans have had a bit of fun in the meantime with the logic and whatnot.

jb

[luckyme]

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.is that the human species is worth significantly more than other species. In fact, it can even be argued that humans are worth LESS than other animals, DUCY?

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No. I don't.

If the bear comes after my daughter, the bear is toast. That's because my daughter is worth more than the bear ...to me, not to the bears mothers. Besides, bear meat is underrated.
I try to play by the bears rules when possible, to be fair. He was going to eat us if he could ... fairs fair.
"Sometime you eat the bear, sometime the bear eats you."

luckyme

[oe39]

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I don't think the sacrifice would be nearly as big as you think, because we would get used to vegan food quickly

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i think this is lunacy. have you ever traveled outside of your commune? are you completely unaware of the pride that many people associate with their food?

from my point of view, you want to eradicate some of the best parts of culture.

[tame_deuces]

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..is that the human species is worth significantly more than other species.

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I am worth more than baby seals.

Please prove that my statement is false, without defining worth and the measurable value of significantly.

Your statement is semantics.

[foal]

There are two debates going on here, confusedly intermingled with one another.

One is "is animal abuse (i.e. the meat industry) wrong?"

The other is "is it possible to objectively define morality?"

If we wish to discuss animal cruelty and the merits or bad points of the meat industry I propose discarding the above two questions, because I think most of us would agree that morality is not objectively definable, therefore the debate will go nowhere.

I like to look at it as two camps of feeling regarding the issue. There's camp A, the "I don't care" or "I don't care enough to think anything should be changed" camp and there's camp B the "I do care, so I'm going to withhold from supporting industries that are cruel to animals" camp. A mission of camp B is often to convince people from camp A to care enough to become a member of camp B. That's the way the game is played. IMO OP's arguments are not a very compelling way to make people care. I didn't become a vegan through any sort of philosophical reasoning, but through learning what factory farming conditions are really like. I don't consider myself "superior" to members of group A, I just recognize that I care about different things than they do. In contrast I simply do not care about fetuses and have trouble understanding why many people in this country care so passionately for their rights. I could not say why I feel this way. I have reasons, but I couldn't say how these reasons translate to me not caring, because the facts I could state would be just as true for a pro-lifer who might still care very much when faced with them.

On a side note, I find it strange that I see so much more hostility toward vegetarians/vegans by meat-eaters than the other way around. Some of RoundGuy's posts in this thread are an example of that. I don't know, maybe people are legitimate in feeling threatened. "Groub B" has grown dramatically over the last 100 years and while it is still a minority, it is conceivable that they might someday become a majority and meat will become stigmatized or even outlawed.

[vhawk01]

Aren't you forgetting Camp C, I care and I don't find meat-eating wrong? Or I don't find animal cruelty to be wrong?

[foal]

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Aren't you forgetting Camp C, I care and I don't find meat-eating wrong? Or I don't find animal cruelty to be wrong?

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I was working with the assumption that there is no objective "right" or "wrong". Without right and wrong it comes down to the matter of caring. Not everyone will agree with the assumption, I just find it the best approach. I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively, so by necessity I suppose I would fall into your "camp C".