OT: The fallacy of the Lederer argument regarding sng's

[darom03]

Howard Lederer have often said that playing sng's are a good way to practice for final tables. And I hear that all the time from regular sng players.

I believe that statement to be wrong.

In fact I believe that it is quite catastrophic to implement sng strategies to a final MTT table.

First of all you don't play to get in the top three. All the players have already made a healthy return of their investment. That means that there is no proper use for ICM.
(Maybe you can make the argument that the use of the chip equity model have something to do with sng's?)

Secondly all the players start with different stack sizes. That means that we in theory start the sng late. Many players have a low M, and that of course means that the normal passive approach that usually takes place early in a sng is wrong. But then again... you can't use the same "late" sng strategy either, as the fold equity amongst the remaining players a very different because of the burst bubble.

True, a sitngo does have the same basic similarity of a MTT in regards that you don't get replacements when someone gets knocked out.

But that is about it!

MTT players can't really use sng's as a mean to get better at final tables IMHO. Maybe it will even hurt their game.

In fact I dare to say, that if you try to play a final table using any form of generic sng strategy, you will put yourself at a huge disadvantage.

This is of course very basic knowledge for a lot of you guys. But then again, I hear the "Lederer argument" quite often, and just had an urge to put forth my own point of view.

I am also hoping that I'd stir up a discussion on how to rightly implement some concepts of sng strategy into final tables.

Hence the following question: What do you think a good sng player can take with him to a final MTT table?

[Velocity]

darom,

just because the standard icm based on 5-3-2 payout structures doesn't work doesn't mean icm is worthless at mtts. icm is based on the likelyhood of finish positions given chip stacks and weighted with the % payouts. change the weights and its still a very good tool to aid in decision making.

I think the biggest thing a good STT player takes with him to MTT final tables is experience at shorthanded play with short stacks. no where else can you get a ton of practice playing shorthanded with stacks below 10bbs.

Velocity

[Clayton]

I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[lacky]

[ QUOTE ]
I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

id put my money on strasser, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would too.

strasser was one of the top sng players a few years ago, and has won $100K+ final tables.

im thinking you didnt know that, even though I would think you would. If you do know all that, than your statement makes little sense.

[Kevin8423]

Think of things in terms of BBs comparativley between stacks and it is still very relevant.

Knowing SNGs well will help you more than anything else would, they are very similar.

[darom03]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of things in terms of BBs comparativley between stacks and it is still very relevant.

Knowing SNGs well will help you more than anything else would, they are very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

But won't many be inclined to take too small edges?

In a sng we are trained to push very small edges because we are used to a certain fold equity, given the prize structure.

A final table is different in that term, and that alone can make for a session of small equity mistakes that can cost you a good finish. If you are not aware of the difference between a sng and a final table, that is.

Or am I reaching?

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

id put my money on strasser, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would too.

strasser was one of the top sng players a few years ago, and has won $100K+ final tables.

im thinking you didnt know that, even though I would think you would. If you do know all that, than your statement makes little sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

The final table of the wsop isn't nearly as short as he is making it out to be. It isn't push/fold poker.

[TravestyFund]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

id put my money on strasser, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would too.

strasser was one of the top sng players a few years ago, and has won $100K+ final tables.

im thinking you didnt know that, even though I would think you would. If you do know all that, than your statement makes little sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, Lacky's right, Strassa is a vv easy pick here.


Oh, and he cashed ~300k alone (i think) at last years WCOOP.

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

id put my money on strasser, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would too.

strasser was one of the top sng players a few years ago, and has won $100K+ final tables.

im thinking you didnt know that, even though I would think you would. If you do know all that, than your statement makes little sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, Lacky's right, Strassa is a vv easy pick here.


Oh, and he cashed ~300k alone (i think) at last years WCOOP.

[/ QUOTE ]


agreed strasser is a pretty sick pick among those 3, though id be hard pressed to not take a piece of aba and/or bigjoe either....

OP,

as has been touched on, youre looking at ICM pretty narrowly in the context that we apply it to the standard 9 man payout structure. There are people on this forum alone that apply ICM different with he 6 man 65/35 structure that use it differently because the 6 man sng dynamic is pretty different than the 9 man (beyond the payouts as well, the dynamic of mid stack shorthanded play is much different than in 9 mans). as with mtts, it simply applies differently with prize jump implications (coming down to reads as close as "how does THIS player value the next payout jump?" could be the decisiion to push ATC vs like 50% in a given situation), and yeah....very different games but ICM can be applied to both.

[vm1124]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would counter the OP's argument by suggesting what other form of poker could better adequately prepare a poker player for dealing with a final table scenario in an MTT.

I would sure as hell rather be bigjoe2003 than someone like aba20 or jason strasser if i were to be reaching a final table at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

id put my money on strasser, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would too.

strasser was one of the top sng players a few years ago, and has won $100K+ final tables.

im thinking you didnt know that, even though I would think you would. If you do know all that, than your statement makes little sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, Lacky's right, Strassa is a vv easy pick here.


Oh, and he cashed ~300k alone (i think) at last years WCOOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

his win was over 440k