Liberty Dollar office raided

[NasEscobar]

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And before you tell me the two aren't comparable, what do you think those FBI and SS men would have done had the guys at Liberty Dollar tried to defend themselves and their property?

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Im curious about Borodogs involvement and knowledge about Liberty Dollar as he can be so certain that they are totally innocent and havent broken any law, and that this raid against them is comparable to actions carried out by members of the Nazi regime in Germany.

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In other words you want to resort to Ad hominems instead of debate.

[DblBarrelJ]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

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Of course. It always comes to this. If you support people minding their own business, you're supporting child molestation. Think of the children!

The thing you're forgetting is that child molestation doesn't involve just the child molester. If it did, it wouldn't be a problem. But you ignore the fact that there is also a child, who isn't consenting to the act. Since there isn't any consent, this isn't an example of people doing what they want, because the child does not want to be molested.

This is a pathetically sloppy argument, and it's been ripped to shreds about 200 times in this forum, but it comes up again and again.

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Its possible to argue someone was hurt by the actions of Liberty, but that doesn't fall into your worldview, so it didn't happen. FWIW, it doesn't fall into my worldview either, but you've got to get off of this "4th grade force" mentality.

The only dangerous part is that now it's gone from "Teacher, Johnny is staring at me" to "Officer Johnny is staring at me :BAM: :BAM: :BAM: "There we go, Officer Johnny isn't staring at me anymore."

[pvn]

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?

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Who does this?

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You just said they're "merely doing their jobs." They get paid for it, so it's OK? Yes or no.

[NasEscobar]

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I would just like to say that all those who participated in this raid are doing their job, and they deserve . . . their paychecks in federal reserve notes.

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Yeah I always wonder why people are always so mad at Hitmen I mean they're just doing their job amirite?

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Because it's exactly the same thing, right? Wow, people that think like this truly make me begin to rethink my stance on gun rights. Its scary to think that you, and people that think like you, might actually gun down some highway patrolman for "infringing on your liberties" by asking to see your drivers license during a traffic stop.

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Stop foaming at the mouth for a minute. I'm not saying the two are the same. I'm saying "Just doing their job" is a completely illogical excuse for someones actions. What these FBI agents did could be justifiable, but it isn't dependent on the fact that it was their job, just as a hitman isn't justified in his actions just because he was hired to off someone

[NasEscobar]

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Its possible to argue someone was hurt by the actions of Liberty, but that doesn't fall into your worldview, so it didn't happen. FWIW, it doesn't fall into my worldview either, but you've got to get off of this "4th grade force" mentality.

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This isn't hard. If someone *raids* someone elses business, it at the very least is a threat of force involved.

[pvn]

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I would just like to say that all those who participated in this raid are doing their job, and they deserve . . . their paychecks in federal reserve notes.

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Yeah I always wonder why people are always so mad at Hitmen I mean they're just doing their job amirite?

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Because it's exactly the same thing, right? Wow, people that think like this truly make me begin to rethink my stance on gun rights. Its scary to think that you, and people that think like you, might actually gun down some highway patrolman for "infringing on your liberties" by asking to see your drivers license during a traffic stop.

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Of course, when you're on a highway, you're on someone else's property. Don't let the details bother you, though. Just keep cranking out strawmen.

Edit: we're even ignoring the fact that the state can't *legitimately* own property here! That's another thread, of course.

[ElliotR]

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?

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Who does this?

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You just said they're "merely doing their jobs." They get paid for it, so it's OK? Yes or no.

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Lollerskates at all of the ridiculousness in this thread, with a special achievement in ridiculousness award to you, pvn. Only an idiot believes that a legally executed search warrant = some kind of armed theft, and only an idiot thinks that agents acting under such a warrant in the United States = Nazi officers committing crimes against humanity.

Thanks for the laughs, though.

[pvn]

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Its possible to argue someone was hurt by the actions of Liberty, but that doesn't fall into your worldview, so it didn't happen. FWIW, it doesn't fall into my worldview either, but you've got to get off of this "4th grade force" mentality.

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So in this 4th grade mentality, is the bank robber using force or not?

[NasEscobar]

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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So it's OK to bust someone's door down and take their stuff if you get paid to do it?

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Who does this?

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You just said they're "merely doing their jobs." They get paid for it, so it's OK? Yes or no.

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Lollerskates at all of the ridiculousness in this thread, with a special achievement in ridiculousness award to you, pvn. Only an idiot believes that a legally executed search warrant = some kind of armed theft, and only an idiot thinks that agents acting under such a warrant in the United States = Nazi officers committing crimes against humanity.

Thanks for the laughs, though.

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Strawmen and personal attacks are fun. Are all your posts like this?

[vhawk01]

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Just to make my position clear, this sort of "just doing their jobs" bull [censored] justifies anything evil. If "just doing your job" justifies breaking into private property with guns drawn and confiscating the private property of people for the incredible offense of stamping little bits of metal into circles, then it justifies breaking into private property with guns drawn and violating anyone's rights for any reason at all.

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I agree with you that the search warrant itself was wrong, but I believe you're incredibly ill informed if you believe every law enforcement officer is in total agreement over every search warrant they serve, and I also believe you're full of [censored] if you're going to tell me you would work for many years to make it to the top of your given career's ladder, then defiantly quit your job because you were told to perform a routine task that you didn't agree with.

You can't honestly expect anyone to buy that idealistic bull [censored]. I just don't see it happening.

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EDIT: Old reply, my bad.