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#11
11-16-2007, 04:38 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
Grunch:
Pre-flop: I would limp. I don't know that I see value in raising a middle pair with so many limpers. Flop: Definite check with so many in the hand. A bet is folding anyone here. Turn: RAISE River: As played, RAISE. If you had raised the turn, you'd be value betting here. 
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#12
11-16-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
Given the preflop bet, which I don't have an opinion about, I'd like to know why you wouldn't raise the flop. With position and for continuation (is that what c-bet means?), doesn't that let you know who is serious? [/ QUOTE ] Someone can probably explain it better than me, but I think it is generally considered a bad idea to c-bet into 5 players with 4th pair.
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#13
11-16-2007, 04:45 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Given the preflop bet, which I don't have an opinion about, I'd like to know why you wouldn't raise the flop. With position and for continuation (is that what c-bet means?), doesn't that let you know who is serious? [/ QUOTE ] Someone can probably explain it better than me, but I think it is generally considered a bad idea to c-bet into 5 players with 4th pair. [/ QUOTE ] Especially on a flop this bad.
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#14
11-16-2007, 08:10 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: I would limp. I don't know that I see value in raising a middle pair with so many limpers. [/ QUOTE ] The more limpers you get, the more value there is in raising a middle pair. Think of all that extra money when you flop your set...
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#15
11-16-2007, 08:19 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Pre-flop: I would limp. I don't know that I see value in raising a middle pair with so many limpers. [/ QUOTE ] The more limpers you get, the more value there is in raising a middle pair. Think of all that extra money when you flop your set... [/ QUOTE ] I thought about this, but I'm still not sure about raising 77. AA-TT, duh, I'm raising. 99-77 I'm not sold on, but I think I am starting to see the light on this. Especially since we are playing these for set value; why not raise it up. Perhaps another step as I try to break away from weak-tight thinking. Would 77 be the cut off for raising here, or would you guys advocate raising any pair in this spot since we are playing to flop a set?
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#16
11-16-2007, 08:55 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
Would 77 be the cut off for raising here, or would you guys advocate raising any pair in this spot since we are playing to flop a set? [/ QUOTE ] For me it depends on the number of limpers in front of me, and the amount of coldcalling behind me. When I expect at least one of the blinds to coolcall, I'll raise 9s with 3 limpers in front of me, 8s with 4 limpers, 7s with 5 limpers and any pair with 6 or more limpers. Not that I get that many limpers often, but when I do, it definitely pays off if I hit my set... Plus this has the effect that your hand is even more hidden, as most opponents will put you on an overpair, and will give you plenty of action with their flopped two-pair... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#18
11-17-2007, 05:13 AM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
You should have raised the turn.
You should NOT raise the river, you were correct in going for overcalls. This is covered in SSHE where it states you should forgo a raise if it will let your opponents overcall. I.E. CO bets, Hero Raises, SB Folds, MP1 Folds you gain 2 bets. OR CO bets, Hero Calls, SB Calls, MP1 Calls you gain 3 bets.
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#19
11-17-2007, 07:22 AM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
[ QUOTE ]
You should NOT raise the river, you were correct in going for overcalls. [/ QUOTE ] There are only two possible villains who can overcall, and you can't conclude that both of them overcalling is a guarantee. If we call, we likely win between 1 and 3 BB (and we only get 3 BB if BOTH other villains overcall, which isn't a guarantee). If we raise, we likely win between 2 and 6 BB (possibly more if anybody 3bets). To put it another way, we only need one cold caller or a 3bet to make this AS OR MORE profitable than THE MOST optimal likely outcome in going for overcallers.
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#20
11-17-2007, 05:23 PM
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Re: Value-raising on Turn and River
Raising PF with 4 limpers is not a bad idea. You will get plenty of action when you hit a set and, as opposed to sooted connectors hitting a flush, it's more disguised. That's why you'd call with fex. 87s in this spot but happily raisy daisy the pairs.
Turn you must raise. Pot is getting pretty big and lots of people can be sitting with GS's here. You want them out. Raise river and get one more bet. There's no guarantee that anyone would overcall here. With such a drawy board it's more likely that they have busted draws and are going to c/f.
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