Donking into the raiser, *theory*

[BobboFitos]

I have alot to say about this. Really though, mainly, it's hard to break this into a segregated topic because all poker hands (and theory) is interwoven. In short though, people are bad at poker, because they put themselves in real bad / tough situations. What I mean is...
I want to discuss leading into the raiser, (because I do it with more frequency then most) but before going into this topic, you must backtrack.
Postflop, in order to lead into the raiser, you must have:
1. Called a preflop raise, giving someone else impetus
2. Been out of position, ceding any positional advantage
I think both (without moderation) are leaks, but again, a separate idea.

So, the reason checking to the raiser is accepted as the norm, is, well, people expect the preflop raiser to fire regardless of whether they hit the flop or not. This sets up the typical dynamic (I think most posters here have been in this situation countless times!) where it forces the caller to define their hand; ie. they will either check call or check raise, (if they check fold, the hand is over, and the PFR's holding is meaningless!) and if they check-call, it gives the pfr control of the hand. (Which is what I like the most, being able to dictate the pace of the hand, because even though over a small sample this could backfire, ie. I'm making bad short term decisions, if I can control whether a bets get in the pot on the turn or river I'm going to win out in the end)
Any case, I've found since I've been here in Vegas, I have more situations where I would rather call preflop, rather then 3bet or fold. (Which I'd do alot more online) This is not worth discussing here, but online when I call OOP my hand range is tight. I play very loosely so (thank god!) my opponents give me credit for a wide range and therefore continue to pay me off (when I really should have a set the majority of the time) Anyway, live, I'm never really looking to fold a playable hand, esp. with deep stacks, and with more information at my disposal. (live "reads," yes, lololololol, but people give off so much live even a person like me who lives and breathes internet poker can pick up some small stuff)

Some things to think about:
1. This is the most important thing, and why it's #1, but people online and live do not raise top pair when led into. Online you face bluff raises more often, (people dont respect donk bets!) and online you will also (more often, but still not a high enough frequency) be raise/called by top pair, but it bares mentioning in a game where bet sizing is crucial, being able to determine the bet for the next card is critical.
2. People don't address a donk bet well! Again, online people always assume it is one of three hands: 1. A big draw looking to B3B 2. A big hand looking to emulate a big draw rather then c/r 3. Complete fluff that wants to bluff but doesnt want to c/r air, since they're getting a worse price on their bluff. It somewhat makes leading weak draws and pairs somewhat more interesting, as it gives you flexibility, as you're more likely to interpret their action but they are not likely to unlock yours.
3. Check calling and looking for a showdown is not necessarily a bad play. Again, I wont go into detail about this, but that IS a limit philosophy which DOES have its place in NLH. But on the whole this will feed into a player with any degree of skill, and exacerbates their positional advantage. Again, with those underpairs or mid pair type stuff that would typically be check called (and folded to further action) reversing the decision typically feeds into the advantage.

Some quick examples...
1-Someone raised from EP to 100 in a 9handed game, 2 calls, I call ending the action with J9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the BB. Flop came A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
This is a lead into the preflop raiser spot
2-2 limps, I overlimped 87o in the CO, the button made it 60 (pot builder) and they called, so obviously I did too. The flop was 4 6 Qr, again I led into the raiser.
3-In early position, 8 handed I open limp (typically I'd open raise here, but it could go either way) 55 and the button isolated raised to 120, SB called and I called. Flop was 6 8 9r, I lead into the raiser.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

lock

[Ship Ship McGipp]

bobbo, i actually read this because i generally enjoy most of what you write. even if i don't want to elaborate (partially because i'm not set on this stuff and have a lot of thinking to do, and mostly because i don't want to give away the toughts i've already had - stfu noobs, i know this is an information board i'll talk about what i want to talk about), i will say one thing that isn't said but should be understood thoroughly:

put two bullets in your gun, and carry a third in your pocket.

[DJ Sensei]

yea, donking is pretty great. really, any bet thats cheap and ends up getting you more information than you give by knocking somebody on their heels is a good bet.

or, say, making somebody both spew a lot of chips and reveal their hand as weak at the same time (!) how can you not love that?

[sMethod]

[ QUOTE ]
yea, donking is pretty great. really, any bet thats cheap and ends up getting you more information than you give by knocking somebody on their heels is a good bet.

or, say, making somebody both spew a lot of chips and reveal their hand as weak at the same time (!) how can you not love that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would an example of the spew be O.raiser raising your donk bet in a fashion that screams weakness allowing you to go over the top with a profitably?

[Jurrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Would an example of the spew be O.raiser raising your donk bet in a fashion that screams weakness allowing you to go over the top with a profitably?

[/ QUOTE ]Which raises of donk bets scream weakness? Is that a bet sizing or timing tell? Or just raises on dry boards?

Isn't frequent donkbetting with a wide range somewhat easily exploited by floating/raising donk-bettors and calling down donkbettors with marginal hands?

BTW which PT/PAHUD stats would best show donk-betting tendencies? High aggression frequency for flow with a relatively low flop checkraise frequency?

[DJ Sensei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yea, donking is pretty great. really, any bet thats cheap and ends up getting you more information than you give by knocking somebody on their heels is a good bet.

or, say, making somebody both spew a lot of chips and reveal their hand as weak at the same time (!) how can you not love that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would an example of the spew be O.raiser raising your donk bet in a fashion that screams weakness allowing you to go over the top with a profitably?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...77#Post11162799

the turn action was preferred to be a c/c, and i agree with that now, but the gist of it is "look how much he spewed with air because i donked into him". Like bobbo mentioned earlier, people rarely raise these bets on dry boards with a real hand, so when he does raise it tells me he has garbage.

[GoldenIP]

[ QUOTE ]
put two bullets in your gun, and carry a third in your pocket.

[/ QUOTE ]

love this analogy. this could make for an awesome discussion. may this thread not die for a while! nh bobbo.

i took everything in as i find it a very interesting, and all too common situation. however, the reason i've been reluctant recently to lead into the PFRer is because, the PFRer, often recognises this and raises leaving me with a decision. Is he bluff raising cause he knows I'm trying to take control of the pot size? Or, is he raising because he really does have the g00dz!?

an example which has troubled me recently:

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > BTN just calls > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r

so i'm thinking, "okay, TP, but i still don't reeeally know where i'm at with 2 left to act".

i really try to mix this up typically. sometimes i will lead for 2/3 pot, sometimes (and more frequently recently), i'll c/r, and sometimes i'll c/c. i'm more interested in the lead and the c/c. let's say i lead $32...

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

i suppose the tl:dr question is, what's your typical move, in such a hand as aforementioned, when the PFR raises you on the flop or calls, for that matter?

i reluctantly fold giving him the benefit of the doubt usually unless i've got a good understanding of my villain...

i may have answered my own question but i suppose tl:dr (part II) is, it feels that, more often than not, any donk-bet i make is raised and i end up hating my PF play let alone my flop play!

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my main issue with donk betting. A lot of times a good player is going to raise that bet (reading it for what it was) and put you in tough situation.

When we do have a set and fire the turn it looks like our hand might be obvious... but I suppose I am then making a argument that double barrel donking would be a good bluff. I like Aejones is right here in that if you donk you should often be prepared to bet all three streets.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
n example which has troubled me recently:

eff. stacks $400 (2/4NL) 6-max. std. table.

MP/UTG+1 (regular TAG/SLAG) raises to $14 > BTN just calls > and I complete with J10s in BB.

flop: 3910r

so i'm thinking, "okay, TP, but i still don't reeeally know where i'm at with 2 left to act".

as i said, what do you typically do if the PFR raises to, say, a hundy? is he bluff-raising because he knows i'm donk-betting with a weakish-made hand? or, does he really have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
The example would be much more interesting if the pot were HU to the flop, here I think you have a pretty clear fold.