77 line check

[anti1k]

I usually fold in those spots, but if Oink says that is mistake I belive him. But I think calling is worse option here than folding.

[Realyn]

edit:missread

[numbnuts007]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we raise, get it heads up, bb 3-bets and we call, bb leads turn, you think we should still call? You can't be thinking sd if it gets 3-bet on the flop can you?

I know, I know, stop folding.

[Realyn]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we raise, get it heads up, bb 3-bets and we call, bb leads turn, you think we should still call? You can't be thinking sd if it gets 3-bet on the flop can you?

I know, I know, stop folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd fold turn UI

Call if I pick up a fd, gut or a set (raise a set)

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

[/ QUOTE ]

No!

If you raise and BB 3-bets then you get 15:1 odds. To call that you need a little less than 3 outs to call. The decision at that point is only about that 1 bet. Not the 3-bets you put in in total on the street given that scenario.

Against QQ+ hero has about 3 outs

Add AdKd and AQs and he has about 3.5 outs.

I just used stove to figure out the number of outs as its difficult to count backdoor outs precisely when you want your average # of outs.

[FlopYouDead]

I'm giving BB a wider range. At this point (on the flop) it's just a standard C-bet. AK-, JJ- don't have a lot of equity vs Hero's range once he raises. I think a 3bet from BB here is especially strong.

Maybe I overvalued the outs but I counted 2 set outs, and 2 1.5 out draws, discounting both by .5. If it's 3.5 then ok.

In any event we have enough to continue provided we get it HU. If we know BTN will play on then flop is a fold, imo. If BTN peels it is likely for the same reasons we are, i.e. bdsd, bdfd and in his case an overcard, in which case our fd is tainted badly and our 77 much less likely to hold up if good.

*edit* to clarify in light of other posts I'm not suggesting fold to 3bet

[Realyn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a scenario in which button folds hero has 12.3% eq vs QQ, KK, AA. Thats about 3 outs

Now add AdKd and AQs and Hero has about 14.7% eq; about 3.5 outs.

In any case. Folding if it gets 3-bet is a mistake IMO. In particular considering the great implied vs KK and AA

[/ QUOTE ]correct me if im wrong, but you are talking about the equity for both the turn and the river, right? so hero would pay 3 small bets to win 17(10+5+2). Thats 3:17 + 4-5 implied.

my point is, u cant say hero has 12 % equity and needs to call ONE small bet with the pot offering 15. To make full use from those 13 % equity he needs to call 3

[/ QUOTE ]

No!

If you raise and BB 3-bets then you get 15:1 odds. To call that you need a little less than 3 outs to call. The decision at that point is only about that 1 bet. Not the 3-bets you put in in total on the street given that scenario.

Against QQ+ hero has about 3 outs

Add AdKd and AQs and he has about 3.5 outs.

I just used stove to figure out the number of outs as its difficult to count backdoor outs precisely when you want your average # of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with 3 outs on the flop.

it was just pretty confusing bringing the overall equity in

[numbnuts007]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I'd fold turn UI

Call if I pick up a fd, gut or a set (raise a set)

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

[Oink]

If you have x clean outs to the nuts where villain will have no redraw then your eq vs a random hand is

x/45 + ((45-x)/45)*(x/44)

Likewise if you stove your hand vs a range then you can use this equation to figure out your "clean" # of outs or average # of outs

x/45 + ((45-x)/45)*(x/44) = 12.6% is solved by aproxx 3.

So instead of making a tedious counting of outs you can just use stove and solve that equation in excel