Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > PL/NL Texas Hold'em > Full Ring

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:07 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,268
Default 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

Villain in hand is 20/14/3.4 over 700 hands

I've probably been playing a 25/12/3 kind of game, as that's about what I've been running at 50NL recently.

Obviously this is an extraction question, but it's a problem I run into sometimes- I have a monster, but I'm OOP and villain is forcing me to define my hand. Villain is probably far more worried about me having AA than 44, but the net effect is the same. His hand is pretty face up, I think, but that doesn't make my job any easier. I feel like if I raise then I blow him out of the water unless he slow played KK+ PF, and if I call and check he might check behind for pot control on the turn (because my call looks very strong on this board), and if he gets to see two free cards then a Broadway card might roll off and kill any action I might get by slowplaying. Third option is to call and donk the turn, which allows me to make a smaller sized bet than a re-raise would be now and still set up a PSB for the river, though I doubt he'll call both streets.

The main crux of this question is that I don't think villain is strong enough to stack off here, so how do I get maximum value from my hand?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $50.55
Hero: $53.50
MP1: $29.55
MP2: $62.05
CO: $56.05
Button: $46.10
SB: $43.05
BB: $100.10

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, 2 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $7</font>, Hero ????
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:22 AM
The Eureka Kid The Eureka Kid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 192
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

The basis of your problem seems to be this... the villain probably doesn't have a strong enough hand to give you that much more action here most of the time. There isn't much you can do about that... Unless he is raising a flush draw, you really don't want to give him any cards to 'catch up' because if he does (assuming he has like 66-JJ here) you are crushed. Whenever I'm in this situation I think about strong hands they will be willing to commit with (JJ+, any 8, sd/fd) and what is the best way to go about playing for stacks in that situation. Slowplaying doesn't make much sense to me, try and get him to commit now, raise to somewhere in the vicinity of $17-$20 and shove any turn that isn't an 8.

You run 25/12/3 and you are worried about him putting you on aces here? You have the perfect image to play your monsters ultra aggro.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:42 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,268
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

[ QUOTE ]
Whenever I'm in this situation I think about strong hands they will be willing to commit with (JJ+, any 8, sd/fd) and what is the best way to go about playing for stacks in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly, however I think I've come to a different conclusion. There are some hands in his range that we'll get it in with no matter what happens. If he has an 8 then stacks are going in. If he has an overpair strong enough to stack off with (KK/AA and maybe QQ), then stacks are going in short of an overcard coming.

The part of his range I am most concerned about is the hands he wont be itching to get me all in with- the lower pairs. They are the only ones that really matter (since the other hands play themselves no matter what I do) so that's what I should play to extract value from. I don't think any of those hands can call a re-raise here, but if I call it's hard to put me on a hand a small pair can beat.

[ QUOTE ]
raise to somewhere in the vicinity of $17-$20 and shove any turn that isn't an 8.

[/ QUOTE ]The thing is, I'd rather build the pot slowly. If he's got a fast hand, we'll get it in on the turn, but I'd prefer to slowly turn up the heat to get him to commit too much with a weaker hand.

Very often (at this level at least) a slow build where you bet on all streets and leave villain with a less than PSB on the river gets them to commit with all sorts of weak hands. They just don't realize what's going on until it's too late. I'd actually have preferred he didn't raise, as then I could keep building gradually rather than being forced to define my hand.

[ QUOTE ]
You run 25/12/3 and you are worried about him putting you on aces here?

[/ QUOTE ]Those aren't THAT aggressive of stats. Plus, who pays attention at 50NL?


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for raising and betting with strong hands. You don't see me slowplaying my monsters very often. And I don't want to slowplay here, really, I just want to figure out a way to maximize against his range. I have this problem playing monsters OOP, and this is just one example.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Dennisa Dennisa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

Jeff,

Here are my thoughts. You want to sell your hand as AK, if he has a small pair. How would AK play in this position. You would Cbet on the flop (I think you should of cbet a bit more than you did ) and he is the small pair thinking you are fos and he raises you. The "donkey" that you are with AK, call his bet, 3 bet and you cant sell AK.

You need to then check the turn. He may or may not bet out, again if he bets out, call/raise he may have the 8. If he checks, then put in an overbet on the turn to simulate the bluff. If thats your read then this is how I would play it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:42 AM
BIGFISH72 BIGFISH72 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: England
Posts: 58
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

As above, I would definitely reraise to 18 and hope villain has an 8 and called with suited connectors on the CO or has a good flush draw with overs. If you don't the action is gonna be slowed down alot on the turn especially with you betting out again. If the diamond hits the board, he might even try to bluff you on the river.
I don't like calling as you are OOP and villain gets more info of you strength.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:52 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,268
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely reraise to 18 and hope villain has an 8

[/ QUOTE ]You realize that if villian has an 8, it doesn't matter what I do here, right? If I raise he'll push (or call and call my turn push), and if I call and check he'll bet and call my c/r, and if I call and donk him then he'll either shove or call my all in on the river. This is also probably true of slow played AA or KK, and maybe QQ.

I don't want to make a play that will only work if he has stack off hand, because that situation takes care of itself.

If he has some kind of a draw (which I think is unlikely) then I'm happy to let him draw at it in hopes that he gets there (though I'd like to charge him along the way, if possible).

I think the majority of his range is weak over pairs, and I don't think the re-raising here maximizes against that range.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:34 AM
The Eureka Kid The Eureka Kid is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 192
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

No doubt if he has an 8 the money is going in anyway. I'm more thinking if he has jacks, I want to commit him now before a scare card rolls off. I'd advocate min-raising before I'd say go ahead and flat call. You are out of position then and aren't going to be able to extract as well.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:57 AM
thevirus32 thevirus32 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

I agree with jeff he hit the 2nd nuts on the flop and is almost guaranteed the best hand. I would reraise light on this perhaps only to $20 or max $22...and like jeff said try to gain some more value off the turn regardless of what card hits.

If villain hits higher boat on turn or river well thats just poker, but I agree I would try to extract as much value as possible on flop and turn so I could push on river...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:16 PM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,268
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

Ok, so everyone seems to think that raising is the correct play here. The reason being that I probably won't get much more action unless villain has a really big hand- which means a slowplayed hand PF, and 8, or an overvalued JJ kind of a hand, so might as well just keep building.

I think the vast majority of villains range is smallish pairs, though the point is well made that we probably won't be getting much value from them no matter what we do.

Given all that, it looks like villain has likely put his last dime in the pot unless he has a monster, and there aren't many monsters for him to have. So, if we change our hand to AK, does this mean that a 3bet would be profitable? It seems like it would be, and if he gets frisky with JJ we still have some equity in the pot.

How standard should a 3bet be here with AK? And if it's a play that should be used often, does villain's re-raise here indicate more weakness than strength (i.e. he's looking for info so we should disappoint him with bad information)?

Just some thoughts. I hate playing OOP [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is what I get for raising 44 in EP. (not that I'm complaining too much [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:20 PM
CalledDownLight CalledDownLight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: burning money in non-ring games
Posts: 4,541
Default Re: 50NL- 44 Flops a Full House

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so everyone seems to think that raising is the correct play here. The reason being that I probably won't get much more action unless villain has a really big hand- which means a slowplayed hand PF, and 8, or an overvalued JJ kind of a hand, so might as well just keep building.

I think the vast majority of villains range is smallish pairs, though the point is well made that we probably won't be getting much value from them no matter what we do.

Given all that, it looks like villain has likely put his last dime in the pot unless he has a monster, and there aren't many monsters for him to have. So, if we change our hand to AK, does this mean that a 3bet would be profitable? It seems like it would be, and if he gets frisky with JJ we still have some equity in the pot.

How standard should a 3bet be here with AK? And if it's a play that should be used often, does villain's re-raise here indicate more weakness than strength (i.e. he's looking for info so we should disappoint him with bad information)?

Just some thoughts. I hate playing OOP [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is what I get for raising 44 in EP. (not that I'm complaining too much [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head here. On paired low flops a raise is very often a mid pair. 3bet them religiously with big hands (JJ+) and air. They aren't going to have a good hand enough to call you and once they get pissed off and call you still have a big hand some of the time and other times you spike an out.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.