Are you willing to go broke on a TPWK? (NLTRN)

Vinetou · #1 03-23-2007, 10:37 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1705)
Hero (t1295)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Button raises to t150, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t300) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t50, Hero raises to t200, Button calls t150.

Turn: (t700) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t945 (All-In),

Final Pot: t2590

I was thinking after this hand that my biggest leak in my HU play might be that I am willing to go broke on a TPWK a lot. In this example hand, would some of you done something differently? Maybe just call the small c bet or check turn. Cheching the turn after my checkraise is kind of dum, but however.

I didn't think this guy could have a monster, because in two hands I played with him before, he raised preflop and when he hit, he checked the flop and slowplayed like an idiot and he didn't get value out of his hand.

Also, in general - you think it is a leak to be willing to go broke with TPWK in HU play?

Also I would like to have some discussion at this point under what circumstances you are trying to play a small pot with top pair and when you are willing to go broke with it. This hand is meant to be just an example, you are encouraged to post other hand histories when you think you made the right or wrong play by playing big or small pot with TPWK. What things do you consider in that kind of situations - whether to play big or small pot with a vulnerable hand like TPWK.

I think I am willing to go broke a lot with that hand so I am seeking for some advice on how to play it. I think I might have a leak in this part of the game.

GL

Mr.JR · #2 03-23-2007, 11:13 AM

If you call a 3X raise OOP with Q-7, flop top pair with your stack size compared to the blinds, I would go broke with this hand most of the time. With smaller blinds compared to my stack size, I tend to keep the pot smaller with TPWK than when the blinds get large.

teteatot · #3 03-23-2007, 12:47 PM

I think how you describe villain makes your flop play fine, but your turn play bad. You've said he won't value bet his big hands enough, so why not just c/c the turn and bet a blank river if he checked turn, unless you think he'd bluff a busted draw, in which case c/c again. I think the chips you lose from letting a flush draw get there is less of a factor than chips you save from not going broke if he has a big queen or hit another 4.

Without that read, this spot would be a lot tougher, and too opponent specific to say what to do.

kapw7 · #4 03-23-2007, 03:20 PM

Isn't the answer simple? Don't go broke (with reasonable stacks) with TPWK if you are not getting called by a worse hand. Which is generally the case more often than not.

I can't see what you are trying to achieve by the weak flop raise.

Also checking the turn after a flop c-r is not always "kind of dum"

Vinetou · #5 03-23-2007, 05:20 PM

My flop raise was not weak. Look at the amount I raised. So you don't agree with my raise on the flop?

Here is another example when I think I should keep the pot small. It is a first hand of a HU match and I don't have a clue about how villain is playing.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t120) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t60, BB calls t60.

Turn: (t240) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t120, BB raises to t320,

So basically I figured out that when you don't know anything about your opponent, you are usually better of keeping the pot small with TPWK. Is this the right reasoning?

ChicagoRy · #6 03-23-2007, 05:48 PM

I find I used to go broke a lot with the second hand you posted. Especially when opponents are a lot tighter preflop from the BB. They call with too many aces there so that a call down like this is not profitable.

What level are these games at? I think that matters greatly to your general question, maybe not so specifically to these hands, though on the second one in a lower buyin game you can often call and check behind or call a weak bet on the river and win much of the time, people raise in very random spots in lower buyin games at times, or raise flush draws on the turn, a king in that spot, ect. You get zero credit in raised pots often in lower buyin games.

kapw7 · #7 03-23-2007, 06:00 PM

First, I wouldn't want to play a big pot with this mediocre hand OOP. I wouldn't also like to call preflop Q7o to avoid these post flop situations.

Anyway let's say hypothetically this is 1 out of 100 opponents that you can call preflop and play a big pot against him because he's going to call a lot.

Let's say that his range on the flop that you are ahead is range A: FD, 99-JJ, A8, A4, AK and maybe other Axo, worse Q hands and 55-77

With your raise on the flop you give him good odds (5.5:1.5) to call but on the turn you go AI and you give him such odds (1650:950) that he's going to fold most of the losing hands range A and call with the rest that beat you, i.e. you help him to play correctly

If you raise e.g. 400 on the flop then he gets 7.5:3.5 and since he's that loose he's going to call with a lot of the hands of range A.
However on the turn he will be getting 1850:750 so he will be more likely to call with a lot more hands that you are ahead of.

But even against the right player I think that this is too marginal OOP to make a good profit. I might be wrong though since I don't have a lot of experience in NL and even more in HU NL. So take this with a grain of salt.

Vinetou · #8 03-23-2007, 06:39 PM

The games are 11 dollars turbo HU NLTRN and Q7 is definitely a calling hand in HU play, even oop. Preflop expectation in deepstacked HU play means next to nothing.

Second hand is a tricky one for me, because I can rarely help myself not being aggressive here. Sometimes I feel like I am raisebetaddicted which is a good addiction usually but here it might be a leak that is why I want to know how you guys play situations like that.

Vinetou · #9 03-23-2007, 03:21 PM

I agree with your thinking, teteatot. But what if I check and he bets turn like half of my stack? Should I fold or not?