Ken Miller: scientist and believeing Catholic

[bunny]

Well here is the post I was quoting earlier. I think their claim is just too strong when they write:

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Therefore, life must have arisen in the tiny span of 40 million years (3.9 billion minus 3.86 billion = 40 million), probably less. Naturalism offers no explanation for such a rapid appearance of life.

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It states 40 million years as a fact, when it is really a much more hazy guess (and there's no justification for saying "probably yes" - it seems they are acknowledging errors in their calculations which work in their favor but not those which may work against their thesis.) It also seems that they are falling into the trap of thinking that the lack of explanation for a new discovery implies that an explanation will never be found - the tone of that quote reads to me like "naturalist explanations are doomed in trying to account for this fact" when in fact (even ceding their timeframe and the complexity of the lifeforms existing at 3.86 billion years ago) all it says is that if the "soup" origin of life is correct, it must have happened quickly.

I'm also trying to pin them down on how they have determined just how advanced the life is - they make vague reference to photosynthesis having to have occurred and that this therefore implies complexity, yet concede that the life forms found approximately 3.86 billion years ago were single cell organisms. Do you happen to have a reference covering this complex single celled organism?

[NotReady]

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It states 40 million years as a fact...etc.


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Since it's so short I'm going to quote the entire article:

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Recent research indicates that the Moon suffered intense asteroid and meteoroid bombardment impacting its entire surface some 3.9 billion years ago.1, 2 Because of the Moon’s proximity to Earth and because of Earth’s greater gravity, we can reasonably infer that Earth, too, suffered heavy bombardment at that time— an assault as much as thirty times more intense.

Such bombardment would have wreaked havoc on the planet. It would have reduced Earth’s crust to a molten mass, turning its surface water to vapor. This scenario may explain the lack of marine deposits and rocks dating earlier than 3.9 billion years. Remarkably, this pelting may have played a vital role in preparing Earth for life. Along with the asteroids and meteoroids, comets (which are mostly frozen water) would have rained down in abundance. Once the barrage slowed and surface cooling began, that water would have condensed, contributing to the formation of a huge ocean. (The bombardment may also explain the moisture on Mars about 3.9 billion years ago.)3, 4

These findings underscore the miraculous rapidity of life’s origin. We know from the ratios of carbon isotopes that life was abundant on Earth as far back as 3.86 billion years ago.5 Therefore, life must have arisen in the tiny span of 40 million years (3.9 billion minus 3.86 billion = 40 million), probably less. Naturalism offers no explanation for such a rapid appearance of life. The Bible, on the other hand, does.


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First, I don't see any reference to photosynthesis.

Second, I think you're nitpicking. He says that since research shows the LHB stopped on the moon about 3.9 bya it's reasonable to infer the same for earth. Given that, the statement about "must" is based on the inference.

Another thing, this article is from 2001. They've discussed this issue a ton since then. I'm sure if you could show that the LHB was different for earth, or that the life traces of 3.86 bya are bogus, they would adjust their position.

At any rate, I don't find them dogmatically asserting anything as fact that it isn't reasonable to view as fact.

Last word, if you don't find them helpful, just ignore. If you think they are truly wrong, try emailing them or calling during their webcast (every Tuesday from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. pacific). If you do either and get a response, let me know, I'm interested.

[bunny]

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First, I don't see any reference to photosynthesis.

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The photosynthesis is in other articles and relates to the earliest examples of single celled life - I'm trying to track down how they have concluded the life which exists at -3.86 billion years is "complex" as 40 million years is enough for something to have started. Again just accepting their premises.

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Second, I think you're nitpicking. He says that since research shows the LHB stopped on the moon about 3.9 bya it's reasonable to infer the same for earth. Given that, the statement about "must" is based on the inference.

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Well I am nitpicking. I said before I appreciate their efforts, I just think they neednt have phrased this as a fact, nor inserted the "probably less" as this is just completely unjustified. I have contacted them regarding both of these facts, I'll see what comes of it.

[NotReady]

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Well I am nitpicking.


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An honest debater, wow. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

FWIW, I have much more serious objections to some of what they say. I guess what I like about them best is they give a good evaluation of evidence from a Christian perspective, and they really do have a great attitude - Ross hates to debate and all of them are non-confrontational. Very refreshing.

[hexag1]

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Ross hates to debate and all of them are non-confrontational. Very refreshing.

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That is a great step. This way the impact of his irrationality and intellectual dishonesty is kept to a minimum.

[Drag]

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He is saying:

1) The earth is not 4.5 billion years old, it's age is somewhere in the thousands to tens of thousands
2) Dinosaur fossils are found because they coexisted with humans (In fact, he states that they are mentioned in the Bible).
3) Since humans, dinosaurs, and other extinct animals coexisted together, the theory of evolution as it is known today is false.

It has no bearing on the sin and death since that only applies to people.

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He forgets to add that the earth is flat.

All these claims are just ridiculous, and they can be disproved just as it can be disproved that the earth is flat. Quoting and supporting these claims show a severe lack of education. Get some education, seriously.

[bluesbassman]

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So, I started reading up on several refutations of evolution


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Mempho, I would like to recommend a site for you called reasons.org. They are a group of mostly Ph.D.'s and also Christian creationists who don't accept evolution, do believe in a recent special creation of Adam and Eve, and also an old earth and universe. The head guy, Hugh Ross, is a Ph.D. in astronomy. They have a wealth of information that you might find interesting.

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The nonsense promoted on that site is too much to list. (Though I suppose OEC is a slight improvement over YEC, since the former doesn't completely reject science like the latter.)

I did enjoy the article about how God might have enabled Adam and other Biblical characters to live 900 years. LOL.

[tpir]

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Mempho, I should tell you that on this forum, as soon as you start making sense and being honest as a theist you will immediately be accused of intellectual dishonesty and perhaps of being a troll. Just a heads up about what's in store for you in the Viper Pit.

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NotReady, as soon as you guys start making sense I will convert to Christianity if necessary. I just need a good reason to believe that what you are saying is true. Is that too much to ask? Surely if God gave me my intellect you should be able to present Him to me in a way that does not grossly violate said intellect.

Forget intellectual dishonesty, how about some regular dishonesty? Before Mempho uncloaked as a young earth creationist he lied to me when I asked him point blank:

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Biblically, is the rub that dinosaurs could not have died because Adam and Eve hadn't sinned yet?

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No. I've never heard anything close to that.

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Riiight. Care to answer that one again Mempho? I find it hard to believe that God/Jesus would approve of lying in order to try and get your point across.

[Mempho]

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Mempho, I should tell you that on this forum, as soon as you start making sense and being honest as a theist you will immediately be accused of intellectual dishonesty and perhaps of being a troll. Just a heads up about what's in store for you in the Viper Pit.

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NotReady, as soon as you guys start making sense I will convert to Christianity if necessary. I just need a good reason to believe that what you are saying is true. Is that too much to ask? Surely if God gave me my intellect you should be able to present Him to me in a way that does not grossly violate said intellect.

Forget intellectual dishonesty, how about some regular dishonesty? Before Mempho uncloaked as a young earth creationist he lied to me when I asked him point blank:

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Biblically, is the rub that dinosaurs could not have died because Adam and Eve hadn't sinned yet?

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No. I've never heard anything close to that.

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Riiight. Care to answer that one again Mempho? I find it hard to believe that God/Jesus would approve of lying in order to try and get your point across.

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I really did not get that out of it when I watched his presentation. I don't subscribe to the belief that man had to sin before a single animal could die. I think that is quite a stretch theologically.

As for your first point, noone is going to convince you to become a Christian based upon a Creation/Evolution debate.

The entirety of the truth about Christianity hinges on Jesus. If Jesus existed, performed miracles, lived a sinless life, and was crucified and resurected then you have to believe in Christianity.

Here are some very good reasons to believe that Jesus was real:

1) Historical documents support his existence
2) Many first and second-hand witnesses went to their deaths professing the faith
3) First-hand witnesses don't willingly go to their deaths for a lie
4) If the Christ story is not a lie, then the miracles were real and Christ was divine
5) Historical writings record the darkness during his crucifixtion

There are many good reasons to follow Christ:

1) He preached love and tolerance
2) He healed the sick
3) He fed the poor
4) He was most at home with the outcasts of society
5) He condemned the holier-than-art-thou Pharisees
6) He offered complete forgiveness, even for prostitutes, thieves, etc.
7) He valued substance (heart) over form (appearance)

Jesus is everything that most people yearn for in a diety.

A better question for nontheists is "Why not?" Seriously. You have nothing to lose.

[tame_deuces]

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1) Historical documents support his existence
2) Many first and second-hand witnesses went to their deaths professing the faith
3) First-hand witnesses don't willingly go to their deaths for a lie
4) If the Christ story is not a lie, then the miracles were real and Christ was divine
5) Historical writings record the darkness during his crucifixtion

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1. This is very debatable, and so are the sources.
2. People die for alot of faiths, they can't all be right.
3. Do you watch the news? Miracleworkers get their followers to do the damndest things.
4. That means you believe and all the other points are rather meaningless.

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There are many good reasons to follow Christ:

1) He preached love and tolerance
2) He healed the sick
3) He fed the poor
4) He was most at home with the outcasts of society
5) He condemned the holier-than-art-thou Pharisees
6) He offered complete forgiveness, even for prostitutes, thieves, etc.
7) He valued substance (heart) over form (appearance)

Jesus is everything that most people yearn for in a diety.

A better question for nontheists is "Why not?" Seriously. You have nothing to lose.

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My grandma, which is a wonderful person, fulfills most of those criteria and I haven't really seen flocks of worshippers at her door.

And I have lots to lose, and much to not gain by becoming a rigorous theists, and I can be a good and altruistic person even if I am not, so....why?