Law School Application Time

[Scotty.]

I figure around now is about the time to start my applications. I know there are other threads about the whole law life - this is not to bash/praise law school or the practise of law. This thread is specifically for questions about applying to law school.

Here are some of my questions for the experts.

1. I have a 3.62 GPA and 165 LSAT. I am graduating this year from a supposedly intensive program at a good school in Canada (UBC Commerce). Looking at the US News Rankings, I seem to be around the 25th percentile for acceptance in both categories for schools ranked around 8-12. I don't have any special circumstances like socioeconomic disadvantage and I'm not a minority. I have a reasonable amount of extracurriculars/volunteer work/work experience. Do I have a reasonable shot at getting into a school such as Cornell or Berkley (or better)? Or should I not waste my money applying?

2. How important is the personal statement? What should really go in there? Most schools say the topic is entirely up to me. Currently I just have a narrative of why I chose law, why I would be a good fit, and a bit about my extracurriculars. It seems a little dry and boring though - is this going to be a problem? If anyone wanted to read my statement and give me tips, that would be amazing.

3. How important are the recommendation letters? I was never really close to any of my profs, and none know me that well. I have two that agreed to write letters, but I really don't know how much they will have to say about me. Is this going to have a large impact?

4. Just a procedure question - my recommendation letters might take a while to get submitted (maybe by mid dec or so). Should I submit the rest of my applications to the assorted schools through LSAC now, or wait until those are in?

Any other tips/advice for applications would be awesome.

[Bork]

1. http://officialguide.lsac.org/UGPASe...spx?SidString= This is a good way to figure out your approximate chances at schools. If you don't get into a school with a national reputation, go where you want to live and where it's the cheapest cost after scholarships.


2. Personal Statement is important if you are borderline. How you describe your PS is what most people write and probably won't hurt you.

3. Letters are less important than the PS, still might matter if you are borderline.

4. Yeah, go ahead and apply. The school won't consider you until your lsac package is complete i.e. your letters are in.

The bottom line is your LSAT and GPA will (probably) determine where you get in unless you are an under-represented minority. Also check out this forum and repost this IMO. http://www.top-law-schools.com/

[XXXNoahXXX]

1. You are making a 6 figure investment. Don't let a $50 fee deter you if you have a shot, even if that shot is minimal. GPA is solid, 165 is good, but nothing to write home about. I've posted before that I had a 3.6 and a 172 and I got into two of the top 15 schools. Remember that numbers are slightly skewed when you remove minorities and those with advanced degrees, etc. from the equation.

For a more realistic view, go to lawschoolnumbers.com and fill in your info for various schools (remember to exclude minorities). I'm not sure how being from Canada impacts things, or what your school's average GPA is.

Do you have a strong preference for coast or where you want to be after graduation? This doesn't matter as much for top schools, but will be a deciding factor further down the line. So Yale places awesome anywhere in the country, but for example, U of Texas might be #18 but don't tell me they place better in Boston than BC/BU.

I think your target should be schools like Georgetown, Cornell, UCLA. Reaches should be Yale, Harvard, NYU, Chiago, Columbia, Penn, etc. (you get the idea) and safe bets/likely would be BC, BU, GW, Fordham, UC-Hastings.

2. Not very important at all. Write about your favorite trip. Best childhood memory. Why you want to be a lawyer. Doesn't matter a great deal except when you're on borderline, unless you have some tearjerker story or something.

3. Same as #2. Probably don't matter a great deal unless they're actually negative or your professor is an alum of the school and speaks very highly of you.

Basically most places are 95%+ of GPA/LSAT. Rest doesn't matter as much.

4. Send it in now. As soon as they get anything they create a file on you, so don't worry about stuff getting lost. Then, as soon as they get your recs, the file will be labeled complete and will be reviewed.

[Scotty.]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You are making a 6 figure investment. Don't let a $50 fee deter you if you have a shot, even if that shot is minimal. GPA is solid, 165 is good, but nothing to write home about. I've posted before that I had a 3.6 and a 172 and I got into two of the top 15 schools. Remember that numbers are slightly skewed when you remove minorities and those with advanced degrees, etc. from the equation.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you say you got into 2 of the top 15, does that mean you applied to all of them? That would surprise me a little, as with scores like that, it would seem you would get at least a little more. Also, what was your degree and from where, and how much do those things factor in?

One other thing they say about personal statements is include anything that may have detracted or contributed to your GPA. A large percentage of most of my courses are based on group work (anywhere from 20-70% of my final grade). I made a brief comment about this, and how I found the group experience valuable, but don't think my GPA necessarily reflects what I'm capable of individually. Is this a good idea, or does it sound like I'm making excuses?

Edit: oh, and I would definitely prefer west coast, or generally someplace warm.

[XXXNoahXXX]

Scotty,

1. I'd leave any GPA comments/excuses for an addendum and personally I think these should only be included if the reason is sickness or the death of a family member or something else major. I wouldn't include any comments on this in the personal statement, be confident about your 3.6

I majored in Psych which I don't think won me any points, but it wasn't a big detractor either. Law schools will get the GPA average of your school and your major, so if you have a 3.9 but the average is 3.8 that will obviously not impress as much as a 3.6 where average was a 3.0. Prestige of school certainly matters, and again, I don't think mine gave me a boost or hurt me. I did an internship at a small firm in college, did 3 years of mock trial and a year of moot court, but again, the impact of this stuff is minimal.


I got a lot of fee waivers so I applied to like ten of the top `15. Got into two. got waitlisted at two and didn't pursue them further. Rest were rejections.

I ended up going for BC with a pretty sizable scholarship and it has worked out for me thus far. Ended up at the firm I liked best in the city I want to be in long term, saving $100k over some higher ranked schools.

3. Cornell....someplace warm...does not compute.


Some searches on law school numbers for people with LSAT of 164-166 and GPA of 3.5-3.7...



Berkeley 21 rejected 0 accepted.

Cornell
4 accepted, 9 rejected, 1 waitlisted





UC-Hastings 16 accepted, 1 rejected


BC 15 accepted, 9 rejected, 7 waitlisted.



(above excluded URM)

[eviljeff]

just fire off the applications dude, you never know where you'll get into. I got into my top 2 choices, but got waitlisted at my last choice. go fig.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
just fire off the applications dude, you never know where you'll get into. I got into my top 2 choices, but got waitlisted at my last choice. go fig.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got a full scholarship from Temple (USNEWS rank 60) and got waitlisted by Villanova (USNEWS rank also 60).

[Scotty.]

Well, my school's GPA mean is 3.08 according to my Academic Summary Report on LSAC. The whole GPA system is pretty unfamiliar to me, as we work with percentages instead usually. So this fact works in my favor?

Also, I will be getting a 4.0 in all likelihood this final year (I only have 3 courses/9 credits per semester left to graduate). Any way I can take advantage of this as schools probably won't be viewing my final grades.

As for the Cornell/someplace warm thing, that is a result of a guest speaker today. He was actually speaking for my entrepreneurship class, but he was an NYU masters of law graduate, so he knew a fair bit about all that. I got to speak with him briefly after class. My original plan was to just accept a decent scholarship to a nice place like San Diego or Arizona State or something, and consider somewhere like USC or Berkeley if I happened to get in. He convinced me that I really should be going to the best possible school I can get into. I know its just one guy's opinion, but what he was telling me made a lot of sense.

So basically, yea now I'm looking into applying to a lot more of the top schools instead of just a couple in nice areas that I might luck into.

Also, reading around some of those links you guys posted, I read some more about the personal statements. From what I have read, it actually seems extremely important for someone in my position. There are a ton of candidates in the same area as me of 3.6/165 or so. It is that essay that can set me apart. Does this seem accurate, or is this more just because these sites are trying to sell me editing packages?

[eviljeff]

if you don't go to a top school, go to the market you want to work in. it's tough to get a job out of market.

[XXXNoahXXX]

Scotty,

In the end, it really doesn't matter. Do your best on the personal statement, but don't go nuts. I wouldn't mine reading it over and offering some suggestions if you like (PM me for e-mail address). You're right in that it doesn't mean much until your on the edge and then it can mean everything, so trying to pin down some value is kind of a lost cause. As long as it is 100% error free, well written, and gets a point across, it will be good. Unless you have some singular life event that will make the reader go "wow" then it probably won't make or break you.

I think that for most people the "best school you get into is great advice." Everyone can say that they'll take the money and just kick ass at a lower-ranked school, but you're going to be going to school with a lot of people with that same mindset. I'm in top 10% of my class, on law review, and I'm going on a lot of the same interviews as people in the bottom 1/4 at Harvard, middle of the class at Columbia, etc. Sometimes I am happy that I made the best of my situation and did well, other times it sucks that I did basically as good as possible at my school and someone who basically failed at a top school has the same opportunities. Plus, your school name will follow you throughout your career.


Even if you limit yourself to warm weather schools there are plenty that are good options for you, and given the strength of your GPA (now that I see the average) should do well. If you really think you're going to get a 4.0 this year, and going to a top school is big for you, then maybe take a year off, retake the LSAT, and reapply with that 3.75 and 170 or whatever it ends up being.

If you want to limit yourself to warm weather, still plenty of awesome options.

Stanford, all the UC schools, USC, Texas, UNC, Emory, etc.


I forget, where did you want to practice again?