Why do I suck at poker?

[kekedarius]

Go buy a cardrunners membership and watch all of Brian's videos. Watch Taylors's videos too if you want. All the other videos are kind of worthless, but those two will teach you a lot about the game.

FWIW the AK hand isn't a cooler, and the reason you got into a sticky spot on the flop is because of poor play on earlier streets. You should always be reraising AK preflop, at which point you can stack off on this flop because him calling your PFRR with 22 is a mathematical mistake. But that belongs better in SSNL.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone tell me? I am a very intelligent person and have a high paying 6 figure professional job. I have been playing poker for almost 3 years. I got hooked by the Moneymaker WSOP, started playing online with no great success. Eventually started playing live at the casino.

I have probably lost about $15k online over 3 years playing mostly small stakes cash games and some MTTs. My typical pattern is to put some money on a site, anywhere from $200-$300. Play $25NL or $10NL. I can grind for a while and play good, but even when I play good, I never really go on any great winning streaks. Eventually, I will take some bad beats or coolers, start steaming, and in one session whatever crappy broll I had on a site will be gone.

I will then curse poker, say that I wil never put any additional $ online. That will last anywhere from a couple of days to a week, then I'll put more money online. It used to be that I would lose slowly, but lately, I lose a lot quicker and reload quickr. I think in last 3 weeks I've lost $1k online.

As for live poker, I started out winning modestly at cash games, mostly $1-2NL, then went on long generaly downward spiral. Righted the ship and had a 9 or 10 session win streak at one point which prompted me to think I was ready for higher stakes. Moved up and spewed big time. For 2007, my live play at casino has been horredouse. I have had multiple -5 buyin sessions, which prior to 2007 was unheard for me. I would never lose that much live or tilt like I can tilt online. But dring those two - 5 buyin sessions, I was tilting just like I tilt online, raising every hand like a monkey, etc. So far in 2007, I have probably lost at least $3k or more on live poker.

So WTF is wrong with me? WHy do I keep playing this game that I cannot seem to win? Why can't I stop? What should I do to stop? The money is not a huge deal for me because I make a ton of money. But it is really starting to wear on me psychologically. It annoys the hell out of me that I lose at this game. I feel like I should be able to beat this game, but I am constantly beaten down by it instead.

The reason I'm writing this is because I just lost my onlin roll again. PUt $250 on FT earlier this week, played $50NL 6 max, in first 30 minutes, I stacked off twice to sets. Within an hour I was down to $85 left. So I dropped down to $25NL. Over course of 2 sessions, built back up to $170. Tonight, started playing $25NL, built up to $190, then BANG.....bad stuff happens to me. I can't seem to win a hand. I'm down to $165. Stack off retardedly. Down to $125. Start tiltng.... you know the story. I have zero in my account now and I want to punch my f*cking computer screen.

Ok, flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you suck at poker because you suck at poker.

Seriously though, I would not be slugging it out in NL. Even if you happen to be good, you will run into the streak that sends you busto in NL, with that limited bankroll.

What I do is play limit, so I can always stay in action.

I do play NL, but only in tourneys where I know what the downside is. The way I got good at NL was the tourneys, even the dinky $2 crap. I had to learn. Also I would suggest playing other games such as stud, Omaha, Hi-Lo in both stud and Omaha, so you will understand the principles underlying the game.

The thing that helped me most was reading Sklansky and Malmuth, and anything from two plus two, over and over, and over again.

[demon102]

In ur post I dont remember u once saying anything about studying the game and getting better at it, this is something that u really need to do and also follow good bankroll management guidelines.

[JackAll]

I have two points for you. Read them carefully and understand them. I would read them a few times so they sink in.


1. Don't assume you will make a lot of money from poker. It's not as easy as some guy on tv. Really. BUY A GOD DAMN CLUE WITH YOUR 6-FIGURE SALARY. I know it sounds harsh, but that's the truth. It's god damn hard. Harder than you realise. And more so as you move up levels. If you are playing to make money, you are an idiot. Seriously. Just play to learn and enjoy the game - this can be done at low limits where when you lose a stack, you won't tilt much cuz it's not a big deal. The only reason to try higher limits is if you want lots of monies, and as I said - poker is hard; and as you move up limits, it's just harder and harder. Assuming that you are a genius and that you are just better than most people and should automatically win lots of monies is ludicrous. "Oh, I'm really really ridiculously smart. I don't understand why I don't just automatically win lots of moneies". BUY A GOD DAMN CLUE.

2. Learn what bankroll management is. Until you learn this, you will keep going busto over and over and over. You should plan on putting down 40 buy-ins for whatever level (I started with $400 and played on $10nl) then only move up when you have at least 25 buy-ins for the new limit. And if you lose some (from bad beats, tilt, etc) and have less than 20 buy-ins, then move back down and rebuild. This is bankroll management - where you move down if you are at any perceivable risk of going busto. If you follow this, you should NEVER EVER BUST OUT AND NEVER HAVE TO RE-DEPOSIT. But some stupid moron like you will think "Ooooh ... I have lots of monies and can just add more with my credit card if I go busto, so I can ignore bankroll management completely and play with a bank roll of 6 buy-ins". So until you learn this concept, YOU WILL KEEP GOING BUST. Now read this point again. Really. READ IT NOW DUMBARSE. God I hate it when people are too retarded to understand such a simple concept like this.

[Philo]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies.

Generally, I'm not a "top pair guy," as suggested in one of the replies. The two stack off hands that I mentioned went like this: New guy to table raises from EP, I call on button with AK, flop is A23 with 2 suited. He bets, I raise, he minraises, I push, hoping i'm up against AQ, AJ, etc. He shows 22. Pretty standard. Literally 5 or 10 hands later, same guy raises from EP, I call in late position with AQ. FLop is AQ9 with 2 hearts. He bets, I raise, he reraises all in, I call and he shows 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were these hands at $50NL? With all due respect, these hands remind me of the play I see at $1/$2NL and low-stakes sit 'n go's. (at least the AK hand, the AQ is a little tougher, but even there given his all in re-raise on the flop I think the best you're going to do is chop, since he's not raising in EP pre-flop with A9)

Think about your AK hand. On the flop the only hand you can beat is a worse ace. He bet the A23 flop, you raised, and he re-raised. What does that tell you? Obviously he knows you could have a big ace, including AK, and he's not worried.

His min raise was an enticement for you to call--if he's such a donk that he's going to get stacked on that flop with AQ or AJ then he probably isn't going to just min raise. If I raise his bet on the flop and he comes back and re-raises me, I'm worried. In that situation I'm thinking I'm almost assuredly beat, whereas you push all in "hoping" that he has AQ or AJ.

I would say that one thing that you have to do is think more carefully about what your opponent may be holding, and what he thinks you may be holding. If he's any kind of player at all he knows you could have AK, and if he's not worried about that then why would you put him on AQ or AJ?

[JackAll]

The way he is playing is secondary to his bankroll idiocy:

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I'm writing this is because I just lost my onlin roll again. PUt $250 on FT earlier this week, played $50NL 6 max

[/ QUOTE ]

Telling him how to play before he learns bankroll management is a waste of time. Someone needs to slap this moron upside the head until he understands bankroll management.

[e_phemeral]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies.

Generally, I'm not a "top pair guy," as suggested in one of the replies. The two stack off hands that I mentioned went like this: New guy to table raises from EP, I call on button with AK, flop is A23 with 2 suited. He bets, I raise, he minraises, I push, hoping i'm up against AQ, AJ, etc. He shows 22. Pretty standard. Literally 5 or 10 hands later, same guy raises from EP, I call in late position with AQ. FLop is AQ9 with 2 hearts. He bets, I raise, he reraises all in, I call and he shows 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were these hands at $50NL? With all due respect, these hands remind me of the play I see at $1/$2NL and low-stakes sit 'n go's. (at least the AK hand, the AQ is a little tougher, but even there given his all in re-raise on the flop I think the best you're going to do is chop, since he's not raising in EP pre-flop with A9)

Think about your AK hand. On the flop the only hand you can beat is a worse ace. He bet the A23 flop, you raised, and he re-raised. What does that tell you? Obviously he knows you could have a big ace, including AK, and he's not worried.

His min raise was an enticement for you to call--if he's such a donk that he's going to get stacked on that flop with AQ or AJ then he probably isn't going to just min raise. If I raise his bet on the flop and he comes back and re-raises me, I'm worried. In that situation I'm thinking I'm almost assuredly beat, whereas you push all in "hoping" that he has AQ or AJ.

I would say that one thing that you have to do is think more carefully about what your opponent may be holding, and what he thinks you may be holding. If he's any kind of player at all he knows you could have AK, and if he's not worried about that then why would you put him on AQ or AJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I may have out-thought myself on that hand. I figure that most people with AK in my position would have reraised villain preflop, in which case, if I'm villain I put button on AK, AQ or a big pair and call the reraise hoping to flop a set and stack him. Instead I just call his preflop raise, hit top pair with top kicker. I feel as if my hand is disguised and that its possible he could stack off with AQ or AJ. Perhaps this is really bad thinking on my part. In retrospect for this hand, it obviously was. I sometimes think like this - I play a hand in a way that in my mind disguises it and I end up losing money because I think that there's no way my opponent knows the strength of my hand and its possible that he/she is pressing with a weaker hand. You are correct, though, that when he pushes my flop reraise, I should be worried about sets or A2 or A3. I played it pretty bad. It's just one pair.

[e_phemeral]

[ QUOTE ]
I have two points for you. Read them carefully and understand them. I would read them a few times so they sink in.


1. Don't assume you will make a lot of money from poker. It's not as easy as some guy on tv. Really. BUY A GOD DAMN CLUE WITH YOUR 6-FIGURE SALARY. I know it sounds harsh, but that's the truth. It's god damn hard. Harder than you realise. And more so as you move up levels. If you are playing to make money, you are an idiot. Seriously. Just play to learn and enjoy the game - this can be done at low limits where when you lose a stack, you won't tilt much cuz it's not a big deal. The only reason to try higher limits is if you want lots of monies, and as I said - poker is hard; and as you move up limits, it's just harder and harder. Assuming that you are a genius and that you are just better than most people and should automatically win lots of monies is ludicrous. "Oh, I'm really really ridiculously smart. I don't understand why I don't just automatically win lots of moneies". BUY A GOD DAMN CLUE.

2. Learn what bankroll management is. Until you learn this, you will keep going busto over and over and over. You should plan on putting down 40 buy-ins for whatever level (I started with $400 and played on $10nl) then only move up when you have at least 25 buy-ins for the new limit. And if you lose some (from bad beats, tilt, etc) and have less than 20 buy-ins, then move back down and rebuild. This is bankroll management - where you move down if you are at any perceivable risk of going busto. If you follow this, you should NEVER EVER BUST OUT AND NEVER HAVE TO RE-DEPOSIT. But some stupid moron like you will think "Ooooh ... I have lots of monies and can just add more with my credit card if I go busto, so I can ignore bankroll management completely and play with a bank roll of 6 buy-ins". So until you learn this concept, YOU WILL KEEP GOING BUST. Now read this point again. Really. READ IT NOW DUMBARSE. God I hate it when people are too retarded to understand such a simple concept like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I understand the concept of broll mgmt. I guess my point is that I feel that I cannot play correctly at low limits because the amount of money in play is not meaningful to me. Or rather, that I cannot play correctly over long periods of time at low limits. I can certainly play good over certain periods of time, but whenever i start to lose over an extended period of time, or even in a session, whether through bad play on my part, bad beats, cooles, whatever, my discipline breaks down and sometimes I become a tilt monkey.

My real question is whether I am making a mistake by putting relatively small amounts of money (to me) online and trying to grind small stakes? Maybe I'm not cut out to grind small stakes because the money is not meaningful to me? I understand that the winrates in poker are low. I don't have expectations of winning lots of money playing $25NL. I guess I am just trying to see if there is anyone out there like me who could not muster the discipline to play properly and grind at low stakes, but who fared better playing at higher stakes where winning or losing a buy-in would be meaningful? Or would I just be setting myself up for disaster?

[DeuceSeven]

I play to win, regardless of the stakes. I play 6.50 sngs and enjoy the challenge of beating this stake and building a bank roll to move up to the 16s, then to the 27s, then the 60s. Yes losing a few hundred dollars a month doesn't mean much to me but I love the challenge of improving and winning. If I wanted to I could add another 5k to my 1k bank roll and start playing $60s, but I would rather prove that I can beat the lower stakes before I move up.

I guess my advice is:

1) Just play for fun, don't let losing bother you if the money doesn't mean anything.

2) Change your attitude to wanting to win and improve, which means you'll have to work hard by studying and posting trouble hands.

3) Maybe play a different form of poker, maybe if cash games are boring for you try sngs or mtts.

My guess if losing is effecting you that you do care and you're using the "money doesn't matter" as an excuse.

[The Velour Fog]

you theory about money not feeling meaningful is a cop out, trying to avoid what ever your real problem is imo. if you cant beat the lower levels its highly unlikely you will beat the levels above for quite obvious reasons. but sure, go ahead and try, it will only cost you more and be potentially dangerous in the long run if you continue this thought process ( "no, the money didnt mean enough here either, lets try the next level" ).

a few suggestions

1. it seems you have some ego issues from reading your posts. you may be a successful, highly intelligent and make a lot of money in your business. does this give you some god given right to automatically be a winning player? no, not really. being smart certainly helps, but besides that there are many other character traits that comes in to play, such as patience, emotional control etc.
you need to work on leaving your ego at the door when you sit down at the table. this is possibly connected with your episodes of not playing well after losing a few pots. feeling that you should win ( for the wrong reasons ) you become agitated and lose focus.

2. set up a proper bankroll, other have elaborated on this so i wont say much more. one tip trying to make the money "more meaningful" is to decide that you cant top off your bankroll, for a set ammount of time, should you lose it. maybe the notion of being out of the game if you bust will make you try your best.

3. dont tilt, its stupid and counterproductive. coolers and beats happen to us all. i guess for some this comes easier than for others. but try and stay emotionally detached from the game. buy "zen and the art of poker" and read it for some inspiration.

4. nobody plays perfect. you must certainly have leaks in your game, as do i. post and read about hands here. dont write off losses purely as bad luck, you'd be surprised how often struggling players bring "bad luck" over themselves with their play..