really, really deep top set hand

[TxRedMan]

5-5 plo w/ a $20 straddle

I've got $4500 to start the hand

I limp after the straddle with A-K-K-Q nut spades, MP limps, Button raises to $80, BB calls $80, I raise to $300, MP calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet $600 and get called only by the button, who had $4200 to start the hand.

What's your play on the turn? We're effectively playing with $3100 behind us, and the pot is $2400.

Fwiw, the button was raising his button almost every time, and I usually just open in this spot preflop, but I wanted to take a different line because I was tired of limping hands in EP then being faced with pot sized raises and being OOP.

[AjiNoMo]

Obviously, we're talking about the turn not pairing the board. Also, you're not thinking of giving up, so checking is not an option.

I think half potting is the least worst solution here. IMHO, only the nuts would raise you there. The nut flush could even elect to slowplay.

As a live game, some tell would really help on the decision on river. THe 1900 u have left is enough to represent the nut flush.

[RoundTower]

I think half pot is the worst possible play here, what do you do if you bet half the pot and he goes all in?

Any read on the button? If I'm feeling lucky I bet 1800-2k and call a shove, and shove the river if called. If I think the button is likely to have called the flop here with the nut flush (possible for most players, some guys are always going to raise though) I check and give up if he bets the pot.

I assume you don't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

[AjiNoMo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think half pot is the worst possible play here, what do you do if you bet half the pot and he goes all in?

Any read on the button? If I'm feeling lucky I bet 1800-2k and call a shove, and shove the river if called. If I think the button is likely to have called the flop here with the nut flush (possible for most players, some guys are always going to raise though) I check and give up if he bets the pot.

I assume you don't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean "if i'm feeling lucky"? If you bet out 2K and he shoves, there'd be 7500 in the pot. You're getting 7:1 on your money for a 4,5:1 to hit your full house. You would have to call, you got yourself committed.

Half potting gets you info, may enable you to bluff on river given the right read on villain while still leaving you a chance to correctly fold if he shoves. In case he puts you on a J hi flush against his nuts, he may chose to just call, leaving you with great implied odds in case you improve on the river.

[cmyr]

I think preflop is awful, since you're going out of your way to bloat a pot OOP against a button you're describing as aggressive, which for deep money is a pretty awful place to be.


your options are c/f or b/c/. I think the important factor is whether or not your opponent could fold a J-high flush here... in a live situation alot of players just couldn't. If you bet and get repopped by the nuts you're committed with your money in pretty bad.


best case scenario is that he's got QQ and is drawing dead, but that's hard to take advantage of since he'll fold if you pot the turn and take the pot away if you check. A smaller bet might let him see a pairing river card cheap, but to a thinking player it becomes obvious that you don't have the nuts. Maybe it's deep enough it doesn't matter?


All things considered I'd be leaning towards a bet/call here, hoping he has either a lower set or a small flush, but the times he gets it all in with like 58 of diamonds you're going to feel like an ass. Your preflop limp/reraise might also make it easier for villian to put you on a naked ace, and call down praying.

[jipster]

i agree with the above about reraising OOP with this hand;

i think if you are going to commit yourself you should check/raise the flop; thereby encouraging a lower flush out; and if you are up against the nuts you've got 7 then 10 outs

The problem occurs on the turn precisely because you are so deep and OOP; i dont think you have any option but to 3/4 pot or pot on the turn; Alternatively check/fold as you aren't getting your 4.5/1 odds even with 700 behind assuming a pot bet from your opponent

1/2 pot bet, i have to agree with roundtower, is the worst play here; although something like a minibet (if youve been seen to minibet with the nuts) might be just called; in which case you can bet the river; although its risky if your man likes to slowplay

Personally i check raise the flop as anything but the nuts flush doesnt call and occaisonally your gonna get called by qqq or even 888; also if your man hapenned to be making the bare ace play he cant call

[pete fabrizio]

you could also check-raise

[iggymcfly]

I think the only thing that's clear here is that you should have limp/called the flop instead of limp-raising. You've got high cards with a big pair (pretty much what they think you have) and you're still deep enough to have a lot of play OOP.

As played, I'd probably just check the flop. Middle set's unlikely since you have a queen and you're not going to get called by anything else that you beat. Also, it's a multiway pot and live players are more likely to call a weak flush here as well as more likely to check the nuts, especially if this is at the WSOP.

If you are going to bet the flop, I'd probably just pot it rather than leaving most of the money to be bet with one card to come and allowing a flush to play more correctly against you.

[cmyr]

I don't like c/r since if he makes a decent bet he's going to feel committed with alot of hands that he might've folded had you led big on the turn. We really really would rather not be getting it all-in here against any flush whatsoever... we want to make the play with the most fold equity possible.

[sc000t]

limp/raise preflop is ugly. just bet preflop and call a reraise.

As played I check the flop. Up against 3 other players and you don't have a diamond. If you had the Ad this would be a completely different hand...and much more intersting imo.

As played I think you should pot the turn honestly. Unless he has the Ad in his hand, its going to be extremely difficult for him to call a potsized bet. I think you will get alot of smaller flushes calling one street then folding to further aggression on the turn because a smaller flush won't really beat much from villians perspective. Also since he didn't reraise the flop, I'd say its less likely he flopped the nuts unless its like a set + NF.

Only other option would be to check and hope he checks a flush behind to see a safe river and keep pot small, because a small flush really doesn't want to see a c/r either.

Betting half pot is the worst option imo because smaller flushes call and bigger flushes raise