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#1
08-18-2007, 04:07 PM
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$5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
have no legitimate read on villian, and are first to act out of position on the flop...
1. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) Hero ($10.83) UTG ($1.40) MP ($6.10) CO ($8.38) Button ($5.10) SB ($2.04) Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.15</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10. Flop: ($0.45) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.28</font> 2. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) Hero ($11.88) UTG ($5.54) MP ($6) CO ($7.68) Button ($4.72) SB ($3.36) Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $0.05. <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.15</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.10, MP folds. Flop: ($0.37) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.23</font> are these your default plays? 
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#2
08-18-2007, 04:24 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.
about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.
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#3
08-18-2007, 04:28 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
Hand 1 > Hand 2. Check hand 2.
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#4
08-18-2007, 04:48 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
It really depends on what he thinks your donking range is, and what his double barrel range is.
Donkbetting isn't great, but floating out of position isn't much better. check folding seems weak. I'm definitely not going to check-raise. That's a horrible line that I see way too much from otherwise good players.
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#5
08-18-2007, 04:48 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
[ QUOTE ]
i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things. about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.
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#6
08-18-2007, 04:56 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things. about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. [/ QUOTE ] i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead.
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#7
08-18-2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things. about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. [/ QUOTE ] i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead. [/ QUOTE ] I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength.
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#8
08-18-2007, 05:20 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things. about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. [/ QUOTE ] i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead. [/ QUOTE ] I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength. [/ QUOTE ] its not a leak. its just basic deepstack poker. when you have a marginal hand, with lots of money left behind, someetimes its best not to protect your hand, because you can't get your money in with it anyway. yes, you will sacrifice some equity each time you use this approach, but you sacrifice value against most players playing marginal hands like blanks. a lot of times, the hand you hold will be very much ahead of the ranges that bet into you, but very much behind the range of hands that call your bets. taking advantage of that puts you in a lot of uncomfortable situations, but if you get good at operating in those conditions, you can earn more on mediocre hands. everytime i'm evaluating a street, the first thing i always think about is how much money i want to get in. against some players, i want to get all my money in with tpwk. against other players i want to play for less with stronger hands. playing a much more agressive style is a good way to go too, but it still revolves around the same concepts. the main difference is that if you have a super agressive image, then you will get looser action on weaker hands, thus making you more likely to want to play for all of your money with marginal hands, since there is now more value in doing so.
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#9
08-18-2007, 05:36 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things. about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with. [/ QUOTE ] Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. [/ QUOTE ] i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead. [/ QUOTE ] I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength. [/ QUOTE ] its not a leak. its just basic deepstack poker. when you have a marginal hand, with lots of money left behind, someetimes its best not to protect your hand , because you can't get your money in with it anyway. yes, you will sacrifice some equity each time you use this approach, but you sacrifice value against most players playing marginal hands like blanks. a lot of times, the hand you hold will be very much ahead of the ranges that bet into you, but very much behind the range of hands that call your bets. taking advantage of that puts you in a lot of uncomfortable situations, but if you get good at operating in those conditions, you can earn more on mediocre hands. everytime i'm evaluating a street, the first thing i always think about is how much money i want to get in. against some players, i want to get all my money in with tpwk. against other players i want to play for less with stronger hands. playing a much more agressive style is a good way to go too, but it still revolves around the same concepts. the main difference is that if you have a super agressive image, then you will get looser action on weaker hands, thus making you more likely to want to play for all of your money with marginal hands, since there is now more value in doing so. [/ QUOTE ] There is a big difference between sometimes c/cling with these hands OOP and, "I will c/c with these types of hands alot then..." Alot is more likely to be a leak than sometimes, which sometimes c/cling I often employ. The play is more based on my image and hardly any read on villain, not based on how to play basic deepstack poker.
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#10
08-18-2007, 05:47 PM
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Re: $5NL 6-Max, When you\'ve been both tight and loose,
why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it. a lot isn't an exeaggeration on my part. i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do. i posted some stats the other day, and my postflop AF is about 2.8. if i wanted to play more agressively with marginal hands, i would probably run with an AF closer to 5 or 6 as opposed to 3.5-4, so that i'd be getting a lot of action from worse hands when i did.
is your image agressive enough that you're really going to get much value out of your 99 in hand 2? is it really tight enough that a bluff in that situation is far and away more profitable than your hand's showdown value? if your image was that tight, wouldn't you rather be using your really hopeless hands for those bluffs?
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