$3/6 live - pocket Kings - raise an Ace on flop?

[ZOMG_RIGGED!]

62=bad peel. Always fun to catch a good card on the turn but still lose

[gobbledygeek]

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62=bad peel. Always fun to catch a good card on the turn but still lose

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What sort of odds are we looking for here to peel 62 vs AK6 and closing the action? I'm not sure how to discount outs here, but even if we only weakly counted 3 (say 2 for Sixes and 1 for a Two) then 12:1 should be more than enough when including implied bets. Am I out to lunch here?

GeatingoutG

[bravos1]

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62=bad peel. Always fun to catch a good card on the turn but still lose

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Peeling w/ 62 on a AK6 board is fine getting 12:1. If you are not peeling getting 12:1 w/ 5 outs, you have a leak.

I'd give 62 full outs, why wouldn't you? KQ on the other hand has to have some Q outs discounted to the possibility of villian holding AQ or even the slight chance of someone holding JT. Add in KQ BDS outs (which more than a few times will end up in a chop, and they seem about the same to me).

You're already putting this guy on 2 pair or better?

[Scarmiglio]

There's no way you can give full outs on 62. Not only could villain already have 2 pair or a set, but you will also get counterfeited or lose to a bigger 2 pair/straight/flush on the river a lot. When an Ace and a King hits on the flop, I don't see many hands that the typical 3/6 3-bettor could hold that aren't 2-pair or better. most 3/6 players don't 3-bet anything less than Kings or Aces, maybe Queens and sometimes AK.

That being said, you're better off to peel with 5 outs than with 2. Pocket Kings may look too good to throw away, but 2 outs is really slim. The situation is different if you have pocket Queens and a King hits on the flop. Many 3/6 players will play ANY ace, but most won't play any King.

[bravos1]

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There's no way you can give full outs on 62. Not only could villain already have 2 pair or a set, but you will also get counterfeited or lose to a bigger 2 pair/straight/flush on the river a lot.

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This is MUBS, plain and simple! If this is the case, I guess you never give full outs unless it gives you the absolute nuts? MEH...weak!

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When an Ace and a King hits on the flop, I don't see many hands that the typical 3/6 3-bettor could hold that aren't 2-pair or better. most 3/6 players don't 3-bet anything less than Kings or Aces, maybe Queens and sometimes AK.

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Where did the 3bet come from? No one has mentioned a 3bet?

Modified hand example was We raise KQo/62o and see a 6 handed flop of AK6 and someone donks. Who 3bet? Why does the donker have 2 pair+ most of the time?

FWIW, I feel your 3bet range, even live, is a bit too small. I see 99-AA, AQs+, AQo+ 3bet all the time in my "loose/passive" 6/12 and 8/16 games. I know the games are similar as I watch a bunch of 3/6 while waiting for my seat. But it is player specific and prolly not the "norm"

Even if we use your tight range, of QQ+ and AK, we still have the outs to call.

101,458,778 games 54.596 secs 1,858,355 games/sec

Board: As Kc 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 91.168% 91.17% 00.00% 92498491 0.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 08.832% 08.83% 00.00% 8960526 0.00 { 62o }

even though this takes both the turn and the river into account, getting 12:1, plus implieds for 5 outs on flop is fine. Just because we peel the flop, does not mean we also have to peel the turn obviously.

Now seeing that there was no 3bet, you can greatly expand the range. Let's assume any Ace (including AK if they are super passive), and hands that kill us in K6 and 66. Not much else is donking the flop and K6 and 66 are most likely gonna c/r even if they are passive so those "could" be discounted a bit, but we'll keep them in there to make it worse for hero.

256,845,466 games 135.833 secs 1,890,891 games/sec

Board: As Kc 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 85.189% 85.18% 00.01% 218772667 30487.00 { 66, A2s+, K6s, A2o+, K6o }
Hand 1: 14.811% 14.80% 00.01% 38012063 30487.00 { 62o }


This clearly makes it a peel, no?

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That being said, you're better off to peel with 5 outs than with 2. Pocket Kings may look too good to throw away, but 2 outs is really slim. The situation is different if you have pocket Queens and a King hits on the flop. Many 3/6 players will play ANY ace, but most won't play any King.

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This I do agree with and regarding the original hand, I usually just fold the flop.

[obi_wang]

reads: early position player was a bit aggressive/tricky/wierd.
my image: i had just lost a bunch of coolers and raised pf a bunch in last orbit so i could have looked like i was steaming.

versus a tricky villain, sometimes i just try to get to showdown as cheap as possible, which is kinda what i did. the other player folded river. most players at games i play call super light on flop, so i wasnt worried about him much.

[Xhad]

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Is folding this flop giving up too easy here? I actually like OP's play for the most part.

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5 handed raised pot + flop bet and call = fold KK. People are not bluffing that often, and you have 2 more streets worth of RIO to consider.