If Raptor can do it I can to - Metagame and Balancing the Open Limp

[Pudge714]

Two reason this play works.
1. You have reads. You aren't just arbitrarily assuming that people are going to shove into you.
2. You are at a point in the MTT where you don't want to waste a hand like QQ you want to double up. Stealing the blinds here you are wasting a very good hand deep in an mtt. In SNG's this play is horrible because
A) You will be pushing a lot for the rest of the SNG
B) The chips in the middle are really important in adding to your stack.

The other thing is guys in MTT's won't be calling this push with A2 or stuff like that. Guy in MTT's play so tight with like 20-25 bb's. There are tons of spots in MTT's where raising any two is +EV.

I also feel like this is much better if you have like 40k

[Inyaface]

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if you have been limping frequently as mentioned in the OP, most hands w/ aces and kings will shove over you here.

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You may be right of course, but I don't see why you would try such a move at this stage of a tournament. Especially not since two limpers would be a horrible scenario for you.

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For this hand I think the equity gained from a chance at doubling up is greater then that from stealing the blinds. It's ITM at this point but the payouts are miniscule and I really don't care about stealing the blinds to stay alive if I have a decent chance to double

Also 2 limpers isn't terrible since I'm still 65% vs 2 random hands and there hand's aren't totally random since we can eliminate about the top 20%, maybe wider.

[Inyaface]

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I also feel like this is much better if you have like 40k

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Really? I like it less. I feel that 40k represents more of the sb's stack and all of the bb's stack and there is less of a chance of them shoving preflop. Now a 40k stack would work better for a limp raise which totally looks like a steal but I'm still not sure if I like it more. Also a 40k stack still has some playability beyond push fold whille a 25k stack doesn't (unless your an FPS donk like me)

[bigt439]

LOLZ LIMPING QQ ON THE BUTTON.

i havent read the post. i will later.

[Inyaface]

Bumpitty Bump Bump
As I said in the OP is very controversial and might not be the most +ev line but it's a cool idea for discution if nothing else.

[wiggs73]

At work blah blah but I will say at first glance, re: Metagame...

With a stack of this size, I'd much much much rather try to make everyone respect my pushes instead of trying to make them respect my limps... mainly because I can picture myself pushing a lot more in the upcoming orbits than I can limping.

So IF I'm doing anything for metagame, it's unchecking the "much hands won w/o showdown" or whatever that option is, shoving, and then showing so they know that I am not always solely trying to steal blinds when my entire stack goes in.

edit - maybe this point is more applicable to SNGs. Discuss I guess. Maybe I'll have more thoughts later.

[Inyaface]

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At work blah blah but I will say at first glance, re: Metagame...

With a stack of this size, I'd much much much rather try to make everyone respect my pushes instead of trying to make them respect my limps... mainly because I can picture myself pushing a lot more in the upcoming orbits than I can limping.

So IF I'm doing anything for metagame, it's unchecking the "much hands won w/o showdown" or whatever that option is, shoving, and then showing so they know that I am not always solely trying to steal blinds when my entire stack goes in.

edit - maybe this point is more applicable to SNGs. Discuss I guess. Maybe I'll have more thoughts later.

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I think this is valid moreso in a sng because they are not as top heavy. I just think my main goal here is to double up (like I said limping might not be the best way)

[wiggs73]

That's a fair point.

I wonder which actually gives you the best chance though. I mean I know a push actually looks weaker to me from the button than a short stack limping. A short stack limping from the button really just sets off all sorts of alarms in my head.

Of course you have to couple that with the fact that a lot of guys will flop top pair with J7o and say to themselves "surely top pair is good hear" even with those same alarms going off in the background.

[Inyaface]

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That's a fair point.

I wonder which actually gives you the best chance though. I mean I know a push actually looks weaker to me from the button than a short stack limping. A short stack limping from the button really just sets off all sorts of alarms in my head.

Of course you have to couple that with the fact that a lot of guys will flop top pair with J7o and say to themselves "surely top pair is good hear" even with those same alarms going off in the background.

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Right like I said I'm not sure which is better. The whole reason I limped was the metagame aspect of my limping a lot and hopeing they would shove over my limp lighter then they would call a shove.

I was hopeing that they would think ZOMG donkey is limping again? WTF k8 nuts I'm going to shove since it was consistant with my earlier donkified play. Also if either of the blinds flop top pair I doubt they are ever folding

[wiggs73]

If you had been limping a lot before this hand, then I like it a whole lot more.