Psychoactive drugs - whats your position on them?

[Rduke55]

I've been yelling at how bad MDMA is for you for a while now but people still think it's one of the safer drugs when it's one of the worst drugs you can put in your body (I think meth is the undisputed winner there).

I read the article that article is referring to when it came out.

The main problem I, and others, had with it are that it needs statements like these

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A study published in the journal Addiction predicts that, if the causal link between cannabis use and schizophrenia is accepted, rates of the illness will increase substantially by 2010, especially among young men.

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(emphasis mine)

and

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assuming an association between onset of the disease and both light and heavy users

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They are basically making a huge assumption and then running the numbers.

I'm not saying that pot is good for you or is completely harmless. Any psychoactive substance will cause problems if you do enough of it. And certainly marijuana during development is bad. My point is considering the options (other illegal drugs, alcohol, nicotine, etc.), weed is clearly the safest drug with considerations to immediate danger, long-term health effects, long-term cognitive effects, addicton, etc.
Is smoking it all day, every day gonna cause deficits? Most likely.

P.S. A lot of people confuse deficits associated with the long 1/2 life of the drug in the system as actual long-term changes that would remain after abstinence for a long period. Also, people often ignore comorbitity of other problems, pre-existing conditions, and self-medication uses which present some interesting selection biases for their thoughts on marijuana.

[ChrisV]

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I've been yelling at how bad MDMA is for you for a while now but people still think it's one of the safer drugs when it's one of the worst drugs you can put in your body (I think meth is the undisputed winner there).

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No argument here. Not sure about the US, but there's huge ignorance here about how vicious a drug meth is. If you go to a rave or something and ask someone what they've had, a common response is "Nothing. Just some meth.".

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My point is considering the options (other illegal drugs, alcohol, nicotine, etc.), weed is clearly the safest drug with considerations to immediate danger, long-term health effects, long-term cognitive effects, addicton, etc.

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I guess it depends what you think is important. To me, my mental health and the integrity of my personality are extremely important. A lifetime of alcohol drinking will give me some liver damage and probably some diminishing in memory and cognitive capacity. Those are things I can live with. I prefer those consequences to a low percentage chance of my head getting screwed up. To put it in monetary terms, if I had a million dollars, I'd rather take a guaranteed $11,000 loss than have a 1% chance of losing the whole lot, even though from an EV point of view I should roll the dice.

[Rduke55]

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To me, my mental health and the integrity of my personality are extremely important.

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But what I'm saying is that marijuana's effect on your personality is way overblown.

[Rduke55]

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...Schizophrenia has been linked to literally hundreds of other factors. Cat ownership among them

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Terrific point.

[ChrisV]

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But I also believe schizophrenia to be the name given to a class of diseases not one disease.

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I would say it's more accurate to say that schizophrenia is a syndrome - or set of symptoms - which may have a number of different possible causes.

[Phil153]

RDuke,

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You think pot is a bigger trigger than your other "safe" drugs? And that they would be living normally if they only avoided the demon weed?

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I can't believe a college professor aka "brain scientist" is even asking this. It's common knowledge in the mental health community that dope often sends schizos over the edge, or gives them their first attack. People working on the front lines see it every day. It does something weird to susceptible brains that other drugs don't do.

Regarding numbers and studies, they're all available in the link I posted above, schizophrenia.com. Regarding the personality stuff, all I have is anecdote and observation. Will you at least admit that cognitive tests are pretty narrow indicators of the damage a drug can do? I'll do some more reading on THC and get back to you on the limbic system.

Re neurotoxicity of amphetamines, I think regular use is harmful, which is why I'm violently opposed to doctors forcing Ritalin and equivalents into the brains of million of kids. If this drug is as bad as you say, you should be demonstrating in the streets.

I find little evidence of bad neural damage in the short term for common doses. Long term or big doses, sure. But I maintain that the risk of one joint is far greater than meth for a teenager. One impairs your cognitive abilities slightly. The other significantly increases your chances of spending your life in the earth equivalent of hell.

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...Schizophrenia has been linked to literally hundreds of other factors. Cat ownership among them
Terrific point.

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Not really. These are parasites that form cysts in your brain, and are thought to produce THC-like toxins to alter your brain chemistry. And these things are largely unavoidable in everyday life, unlike dope.

The argument you're giving is similar to saying "10,000 a year get killed driving anyway, so who cares if a few kids go ghost riding?"

[ChrisV]

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To me, my mental health and the integrity of my personality are extremely important.

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But what I'm saying is that marijuana's effect on your personality is way overblown.

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Perhaps. I think it's something that's extremely hard to study scientifically. Anecdotally, a common complaint about potheads is that they lack drive. How do you test for "drive" scientifically and how do you control for other factors? It would be next to impossible.

[hmkpoker]

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I can't believe a college professor aka "brain scientist" is even asking this. It's common knowledge in the mental health community that dope often sends schizos over the edge, or gives them their first attack. People working on the front lines see it every day. It does something weird to susceptible brains that other drugs don't do.

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LSD (and presumably other psychedleic tryptamines) are commonly linked with the onset of schizophrenia

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Re neurotoxicity of amphetamines, I think regular use is harmful, which is why I'm violently opposed to doctors forcing Ritalin and equivalents into the brains of million of kids. If this drug is as bad as you say, you should be demonstrating in the streets.

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I think the problem is specifically with methyl-group amphetamines (speed, ecstacy) where neurotoxicity occurs at recreational levels.

[m_the0ry]

Perhaps the most important subject that hasn't been discussed is responsible use. Irresponsible use of a pair of scissors can lead to manslaughter, but that doesn't mean there is a causal link there. Just because there is a lot of negative connotation about drug use doesn't mean the scientific process can be bypassed.

For example I can find absolutely no factual evidence to back up the following claims;

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Re neurotoxicity of amphetamines, I think regular use is harmful, which is why I'm violently opposed to doctors forcing Ritalin and equivalents into the brains of million of kids.

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Amphetamines are endogenic and without a doubt non neurotoxic in typical doses. Their harmful effects arise from the stimulant nature of the drug.

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I find little evidence of bad neural damage in the short term for common doses. Long term or big doses, sure. But I maintain that the risk of one joint is far greater than meth for a teenager. One impairs your cognitive abilities slightly. The other significantly increases your chances of spending your life in the earth equivalent of hell.

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This just shows blatant lack of understanding. Amphetamines most certainly do not cause impaired judgement. They cause heightened alertness. The US Air Force has been giving amphetamines, affectionately called "go pills", to its pilots for decades because it has been proven to increase rational response in stressful situations, decrease reaction time and completely abolish fatigue. Yet it is one of the most addictive substances known. Classifying marijuana as a greater threat to the average person than amphetamines just shows how your personal experience has skewed your perception.

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Not really. These are parasites that form cysts in your brain, and are thought to produce THC-like toxins to alter your brain chemistry.

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I just can't find anything to back this up. Cingle celled organisms very rarely create complex hydrocarbons, much less cannabinoids. As far as I can tell this statement is completely fabricated.

[Rduke55]

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It does something weird to susceptible brains that other drugs don't do.

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So you're saying that out of the all the drugs with abuse potential marijuana is the leader for triggering schizophrenia?

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all I have is anecdote and observation.

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Kinda hard to argue with that.

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Will you at least admit that cognitive tests are pretty narrow indicators of the damage a drug can do?

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Well there are other tests that look at structure etc. but in humans cognitive tests have to stand in because we can't exactly experiment on humans. However, the cognitive tests, etc. in humans are what we would expect based on what the decades of animal research has told us regarding this.

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I find little evidence of bad neural damage in the short term for common doses.

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Are

you

kidding

me?

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But I maintain that the risk of one joint is far greater than meth for a teenager.

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I really don't know if we can have a debate if this is your position.