Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse

[Dr. Strangelove]

[ QUOTE ]
LOLOL. Wars of aggression, which this isn't as we are there right this very minute at the request of a democratically elected government despite the wishes of insurgent terrorists to the contrary who wish to impose their group's aims on the rest of their country, aren't what war crimes investigations are about. They are about investigating discrete instances of actions which might individually be a war crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote for laughs. You are out of your element here donny.

[cardcounter0]

Much the same as online poker room operators get yanked off airplanes passing thru the US?

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
Much the same as online poker room operators get yanked off airplanes passing thru the US?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or not?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Any comparisons to true genocide like the holocaust only show how ridiculous these charges are.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing scalewise to do with holocaust, but culturally it has a lot to do with it. The 2nd world war raised an awareness in many European countries that war crimes should not be accepted for any reason. However, Germany and France and others had their guard down allowing de facto war crimes in Eastern Europe etc. (i.e. crackdown on Hungarian revolt in 1956), and I don't think it was really until after the collapse of the communist bloc and the wars in former Yugoslavia that their awareness and confidence grew high enough to take a strong position against it. They have still not matured and are lost in some old power thinking still (allowing secret CIA-flights, not putting more pressure on Sudan via China etc.) but I sense a pride here in Germany, in France, in Norway and other places that we have not retorted to facing terrorism with war crimes and human rights abuses. Hopefully from this pride in the peoples will rise more brave politicians, so that the likes of Rumsfeld, will be too politically expensive for any US president to appoint in the future, and Guantanamo will become a historical shame. The world's most powerful nation accepting human rights instead of joining the ranks of China, Iran, Sudan etc. would be an important step in the right direction. I can't believe that so many of you are allowing to let your country join that club in such an important matter.

[BluffTHIS!]

Arnifin,

You are assuming, without truth for such assumptions, that regardless of what discrete instances of abuse by soldiers who have been and are being tried for same, that either such was done with approval of superiors at the highest levels, and/or that aggressive interrogations to induce prisoners to reveal information, and which aren't on the level of true torture as practice by other regimes like Saddam's, are in fact torture and innappropriate. Subjecting prisoners who by right could have been summarily executed as combattants out of uniform, to very mild physical and to psychological coercion that it produces (sleep deprivation and such) is not really torture, and in view of the ability of terrorists to inflict casualties on mass scales to civilian populations, justified in these circumstances. And any contrary viewpoints from appeasing weak minded europeans and their american psuedo-sophisticate wannabes where we just have to accept the refusal of terrorists to willingly provide intel needed to save lives are just examples of why our enemies look on us as weak foes who deserve to be defeated.

Arguments like yours all depend on definitions of terms which gives way too much concern to the rights of terrorist prisoners, and not nearly enough to their past and potential future victims.

[cardcounter0]

Maybe so, but if I were Rummy I don't think I would be making any vacation plans to visit the EU.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I understand that the line isn't clear, I didn't say Rumsfeld should be judged to 20 years in prison, I just find it very bad that he managed to elevate himself above law without any significant entity stepping in to prevent it and that for some actions he should be charged and tried before court (of course he will never do jail time, but the symbolism is still important IMO). I believe things are moving in the right direction though (SC ruling, EU discussing potential sanctions against member countries, congress stepping in to try to clarify etc. etc.) it was just allowed to go much farther than it ever should have.

[canis582]

Bluffthis, if you look at the history of WW2 trials and sentances, you'll find that the nazis that owned the concentration camps and developed the cyclon-b barely got a slap on the wrist and were back in their offices with in a few years.

We need to prosecute war criminals. Unprovoked aggression, not killing jews, was the high crime the nazis were tried for an nuremburg.

One of the nazis famously quipped "you will never be able to convince us that we are war criminals". Can you relate?

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any comparisons to true genocide like the holocaust only show how ridiculous these charges are.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing scalewise to do with holocaust, but culturally it has a lot to do with it. The 2nd world war raised an awareness in many European countries that war crimes should not be accepted for any reason. However, Germany and France and others had their guard down allowing de facto war crimes in Eastern Europe etc. (i.e. crackdown on Hungarian revolt in 1956), and I don't think it was really until after the collapse of the communist bloc and the wars in former Yugoslavia that their awareness and confidence grew high enough to take a strong position against it. They have still not matured and are lost in some old power thinking still (allowing secret CIA-flights, not putting more pressure on Sudan via China etc.) but I sense a pride here in Germany, in France, in Norway and other places that we have not retorted to facing terrorism with war crimes and human rights abuses. Hopefully from this pride in the peoples will rise more brave politicians, so that the likes of Rumsfeld, will be too politically expensive for any US president to appoint in the future, and Guantanamo will become a historical shame. The world's most powerful nation accepting human rights instead of joining the ranks of China, Iran, Sudan etc. would be an important step in the right direction. I can't believe that so many of you are allowing to let your country join that club in such an important matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of this sounds good, but really doesn't have much foundation. Do you really want to hold up France's postwar human-rights record as a model? Do you think Europe's response to the human rights abuses in Yugoslavia was something to be proud of? Most of the agitation for intervention, as in Kosovo, was driven by the US. Europe also tolerated genocide in Rwanda, and the ongoing one in Darfur (America's record on the subject, though shameful, is at least a little better.)

It's certainly true that Europe hasn't compromised its positions on civil or human rights in response to terrorism, but then again, most of Europe hasn't really had much of a terrorism problem.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of this sounds good, but really doesn't have much foundation. Do you really want to hold up France's postwar human-rights record as a model? Do you think Europe's response to the human rights abuses in Yugoslavia was something to be proud of? Most of the agitation for intervention, as in Kosovo, was driven by the US. Europe also tolerated genocide in Rwanda, and the ongoing one in Darfur (America's record on the subject, though shameful, is at least a little better.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The record is nothing at all to be proud of, thought that came through in my post.

[ QUOTE ]

It's certainly true that Europe hasn't compromised its positions on civil or human rights in response to terrorism, but then again, most of Europe hasn't really had much of a terrorism problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

As compared to the US? The number of incidents in Europe is much higher, the threat level has generally been much higher here, the next terrorist attack is more likely to happen in Europe than in the US.