Raising then folding AJ pre-flop - pathetic or heroic? - Page 3

Rastadon · #21 08-23-2006, 05:50 PM

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Then again, I never open-limp. Ever.

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This is a much worse policy than "sometimes" open-limping AJo in MP to "mix it up."

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What is a situation where it is very necessary to open limp? Both raising and folding are very wrong.

SixForty · #22 08-23-2006, 06:24 PM

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What is a situation where it is very necessary to open limp? Both raising and folding are very wrong.

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I get situations like this a lot

semi-loose/very-passive game

You pick up 55 or 87s in UTG.

Raising will often result in the pot being 2 or 3 way with you holding a marginal hand, that most certainly is not best, in bad position.

Calling will often result in the pot being 5 or 6 way, with you holding a hand that plays well multiway.

Folding misses out on good speculative hands in conditions which are ripe for you to play them.

Folding is bad, because this table is primed for you to play speculative hands like this. Raising is bad, because it changes the table conditions which made it good to play in the first place.

So I open limp sutff like this at the right table quite often, when I know that both raising and folding result in situations that I don't like.

bozlax · #23 08-23-2006, 06:29 PM

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Then again, I never open-limp. Ever.

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This is a much worse policy than "sometimes" open-limping AJo in MP to "mix it up."

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What is a situation where it is very necessary to open limp? Both raising and folding are very wrong.

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What sixforty said, but I'll generalize even more. Any hand that you get in EP/eMP that you want to play that doesn't scream "raise". PPs below 8 or 9. Suited one-gaps. All kinds of mid-trashy hands that you want to see a flop with, but not for two bets, and your table will let you get away with doing so.

Dazarath · #24 08-23-2006, 09:05 PM

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i thought this was pretty standard? i'd fold AJs too.

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I think it's very standard. It'd be "absolutely ridiculous" to consider calling here, IMO. There's no way I fold AJs, though.

Dazarath · #25 08-23-2006, 09:08 PM

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AJo is definitely a raise/fold sort of hand. You really don't want to play a multiways pot with it.

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No, it's really not. If there are several limpers already it can be correct to limp preflop. While it plays easier in position against one or two hands it's also ok in a large field.

Folding AJo preflop in an unraised pot in a game below 10/20 is just ridiculous.

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This is the stance I've always taken. I don't mind multiway pots with a hand like A,Jo. Moreover, if it's A,Js I really don't mind multiway pots. The offsuit hand is, to me at least, a pretty easy hand to get away from postflop. Bear in mind I say this assuming I have a good read on the other players at the table.

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AJo is a pretty crappy hand to have in a multiway pot. The reason I wouldn't raise after several limpers is because AJo isn't strong enough to have an equity edge after multiple limpers, and I don't want to be playing TPGK in a huge pot where I can't protect my hand.

Xhad · #26 08-23-2006, 09:12 PM

AJo is not a crappy hand in a multiway pot, it's an ok hand.

AJo does have an edge in most multiway pots, it's just not that huge.

I used to play in a B&M game where every pot was 8+ to the flop, raised or not. So basically if you wouldn't raise on the button after six limpers, raising UTG was even worse because basically the same thing happens except you're OOP. Would you fold AJo UTG in that game?

bozlax · #27 08-23-2006, 09:28 PM

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It'd be "absolutely ridiculous" to consider calling here, IMO. There's no way I fold AJs, though.

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Just out of curiosity, how much of an equity boost do you think suitedness gives AJ? Do you think AJs or 86o has more preflop equity in this situation?

Xhad · #28 08-23-2006, 09:41 PM

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,961,069 games 13.579 secs 365,348 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 15.3079 % 14.20% 01.11% { AJo }
Hand 2: 32.9518 % 29.41% 03.54% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 51.7403 % 48.53% 03.21% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

---

3,788,232 games 10.255 secs 369,403 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 19.7019 % 18.49% 01.21% { AJs }
Hand 2: 31.0378 % 27.61% 03.43% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 49.2603 % 46.31% 02.95% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

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Yeah, I realize that's really conservative with the ranges, especially given the position of the raises. I don't think it makes THAT much of a difference even if we widen the ranges a bit because we're pretty much trying to hit an A (or flush) either way, we're just dominated a little less often when we add other hands.

AJs is also a better postflop in that we are getting ridiculous implied odds on our flush, plus we are able to peel the flop a lot more liberally (allowing us to realize more of our preflop equity without ever peeling dry overcards). Practically all of AJo's wins are going to come from the types of flops that immediately force us into WA/WB mode, out of position, multiway.

Dazarath · #29 08-23-2006, 09:56 PM

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AJo does have an edge in most multiway pots, it's just not that huge.

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AJo is the kind of hand that loses equity very quickly as more people enter the pot. Against a bunch of random hands, AJo does very well. But if you plug in AJo vs 7 players with the top 30% of hands, you actually have an equity deficit. Assuming that the players have some amount of hand selection, you won't be pumping any equity edge by raising after many limpers.

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Would you fold AJo UTG in that game?

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I would not fold, but I wouldn't raise either.

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Just out of curiosity, how much of an equity boost do you think suitedness gives AJ? Do you think AJs or 86o has more preflop equity in this situation?

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This can be quantified very easily if you assign ranges.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 15.7904 % 15.04% 00.75% { AJo }
Hand 2: 35.0400 % 32.32% 02.72% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 49.1696 % 46.43% 02.74% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 20.1659 % 19.45% 00.71% { AJs }
Hand 2: 33.3341 % 30.80% 02.53% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 46.5000 % 43.95% 02.55% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 19.2784 % 19.19% 00.09% { 86o }
Hand 2: 34.2153 % 31.76% 02.46% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 46.5063 % 44.05% 02.46% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

It's not the equity of AJo vs AJs that makes me fold one and call the other. It's the fact that AJo is horrible against reraising ranges. What kind of flop are you hoping for? Basically, JJx, KQT, or maybe AAx, hoping that neither of them have AK/AQ. If you hit an Axx flop, either you're dead and you'll lose a lot, or you're ahead and not going to get much action. AJs has the potential to make a nut flush. Paying 2 more SBs getting over 5:1 on my money is good enough, IMO.

Dhani · #30 08-23-2006, 11:32 PM

No, I don't believe so. One reraise and villain could be trying to isolate you. 2 reraises and someone has a big PP. I think this is a good laydown depending on who your opponents are.