Folding Nut low and Nut low draws

[Usagi_yo]

Question for Omaha 8/b pot limit players.

I find myself throwing away nut low only hands in 3 way showdowns where heavy action is likely to take place.

Example would be I have nut low, first to act and I suspect one player behind me has nut low, and the other has nut high, or the high.

I usually check fold when either player puts a pot sized bet out, and particularly when there is a bet, then a raise.

Am I losing anything here?

Second question is, often I find myself with a nut low draw only, with no backup draw. I throw these away too.

An example would be I have Ac2c4d9d and the board is 7h8hKd, heads up facing a pot sized bet, I tend to throw this hand away. Had I something like Ac2c4dKs to go along with that board I'll certainly play.

Am I losing anything here?

[Sphere99991]

Wow. Are you serious? I think you need to reevaluate playing this game if you fold A249 on a 78K board. Any 3456 and you have the nut low (half the pot). Any A2 and you have the 2nd nut low and very likely will still take half the pot. If you're going to fold every low you get, you should probably just play Omaha hi. A24K is NOT really much better. The amount of times that whatever hand you'll make with the K is good for the high is slim, considering there'll be people drawing to the flush / straight / set / whatever.

Also, folding the nut low multi-handed on the river is dumb. If you get quartered, you lose a little bit by calling (1/4 pot). If you dont' get quartered, you lose a LOT by folding. If there's $400 in the pot, calling off a pot bet with the nut low will get you at least $300. So you lose at most $100. On the other hand, if the other guy doesn't infact have the nut low (which is more likely if your nut low is something weirder like 23, 24, A4, ...), then you win $200. So if you're WINNING the nut low more than 1/3rd of the time, which I suspect you are, you have to call.

NEVER fold A249 in a multiway pot on a LLH board to a single bet. You have MASSIVE equity. To a bet and two calls, I might even raise this. ESPECIALLY if it was A239.

[kevinhav11]

i can justify foldin an a2 here no problem. a23x is a different story that possibly calls for a raise. a27k you are praying to not get counterfitted so that AT BEST you win 1/2 pot. A23 is good here a2xx no good fold it.

[rando]

You're talking about folding NL draw with no backup and the for example hand is A24, which is darn fine backup. ITA with the advice given, 3-way on river you almost have to call, unless the flow of betting makes you 100% sure there is a NL behind you with a likely draw for high AND the river offers a 3rd straight or flush card, or pairs the board.

[Rush17]

This is pot limit, correct?

In PL, when you're involved in a hand that's only 3-way action, and you flop the nut low with no draw to high...if you have a strong read that one of your opponents also shares the low, then I would bail out right then and there. There is absolutely no need to continue, especially if the stacks are deep. The exception to that would be if my opponent(s) or myself were very low on chips.

[RobNottsUk]

So you're first to act and check, your opponents know you are likely to have the nut Lo because you're very tight. So now dude with a Lo, nevermind the nut Lo, knows that if he bets, the Hi will raise, and you will fold even the nut Lo and that player gets money back plus 1/2 of what you leave behind. Sounds great deal!

If there's 100 in pot, it goes check, check, bet pot. You're asked to call 100 to win +50, or if nut Lo overcalls 100 for 1/4 of 400 which is 0. Folding in that situation fearing overcall guarantees a loss.

With check, bet 1/2 pot, raise pot, goes :

100 -> 150 (50 bet)
150 -> 400 (50 call, 200 raise)

Now you have call 250, to win 1/4 800, which is EV of -50 when NLo is in middle, but could be -ve if NHi was first bettor and re-raises again.

With check, bet pot, raise pot, goes :

100 -> 200 (100 bet)
200 -> 600 (100 call, 300 raise)

Now you have call 400, to win 1/4 1200, which is EV of -100 when NLo is in middle, but could be -ve if NHi was first bettor and re-raises again.

Has a stop bet with Nut Lo out of position got value? By betting less than the pot, you encourage a call rather than a bet by Nut Lo (or a fold if they're concerned about being quartered), and an easy call of pot raise by Hi back. You may pick up 'loose' calls by 2nd Nut Lo's who suspect you have nut Hi, and you put the Nut Lo in the middle, in the same situation, as the one you faced, when check-ing, having to call and fearing getting quartered with a possibility of yet another raise.

[mrroyboy]

Guys I think you need to learn more about plo/8. He is RIGHT to fold nut lows and nut low draws unless he has outs for high. The objective of PLO/8 is to scoop. Getting quartered is usually very bad. Much worse then limit where you only lose a small amount.
I don't know how many times I have bet nut lows and my opponent also has a nut low and bottem pair and gets 3/4 of the pot.
To the original poster. You are right to fold most of those hands.

[bbartlog]

Guys I think you need to learn more about plo/8.

...says the guy with ten posts. As Rob pointed out, consistently folding the nut low 3-handed is exploitable by decent opponents. Now to be fair to OP, he specifically mentioned a situation where he suspected one of the other players also had the nut low (for some unspecified reason), so his fold might be good there. And it also depends on whether you're playing full ring or shorthanded, and how deepstacked you are.

I don't know how many times I have bet nut lows

Yes, there is an option between 'fold' and 'bet' known as 'call' which I often choose when I have the nut low, though as always it depends.

[RobNottsUk]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys I think you need to learn more about plo/8. He is RIGHT to fold nut lows and nut low draws unless he has outs for high. The objective of PLO/8 is to scoop. Getting quartered is usually very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the river, it is entirely possible that the OP could have the nut Lo only, when his Hi draw did not come home eg) Nut Lo + Nut Flush draw on flop, or when his great Hi hand is outdrawn. Furthermore subsequent play on turn by the other opponents could convince the OP that he was quartering the Lo, not going for a scoop.

That is a new situation, and you still must try to take decisions which are profit maximising. That might include, calling particularly if you close the betting, as it may be the least -ve EV option. When you fold you guarantee a loss, and as bbartlog agreed check/folding consistently is exploitable.

Actually I think poor players might also stumble into this "exploit", simply by betting if they have the nuts in either direction, not realising when they are likely to be quartered. On the other hand those players are also the ones more likely to pay off with non-nut Lo's.

The check, check, bet pot, call, call scenario was only an EV of 0, but that was better than folding.

Betting small, with bet, Nut Lo call, raise nut Hi, is not a good situation; because the pot size is bigger, the Hi can raise more.

With bet small 20 with idea of suppressing a larger 'steal' bet from another Lo, call, raise pot, goes :

100 -> 120 (20 bet)
120 -> 140 (20 call
140 -> 320 (20 call, 160 raise)
320 -> 480 (160 call)
480 -> 640 (160 call)

Now you have call 160, to win 1/4 640, which is EV of 0 on that call, but you lose -20 on the river overall as you put in 180 to win 160 back when you are quartered by another nut Lo, and lose your pre-river investment in addition. Unsatisfactory, but may be better than check/folding, if you're going to avoid 1/2 pot steals, and may sometimes pick up lose calls. Should the other Nut Lo player, be good enough to fold to minimise his losses, then you actually would profit in the hand.

One of those weird multi-way situations, where you want one of your opponents to play well.