Hands that Play Better HU in Multi-Way Pots

[stinkpaw]

I am familiar with the concept of not bloating the pot with a good heads-up hand on the early streets when there are multiple villains and you don’t have a chance to get anyone to fold. For example, 5 people call the bring-in and I have a big pair with a live kicker, no point in raising as I am bloating the pot which will encourage people to chase all the way. And nobody is folding to a single bet here.

What I am struggling with is how far to I take this concept. If I have a big pair on 4th street and there are 5 people in the hand. I know everyone will call a single small bet. And I know there isn’t any way I can get anyone to face 2 bets (either by betting into someone that raises or c/r’ing) Do you ever give a free card here and wait until the bet size doubles before you fire?

Or if I have an unimproved big pair on 5th or 6th street in a multi-way pot and I know everyone is calling for 1 bet, do I every just check?

The LHE player in me feels sick giving free cards, but I guess I’m just having problems figuring out my equity in these situations to determine if a bet is +EV.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[PoorLawyer]

Depends on the situation I think. if you have something like (KK)A in last position I think you should raise for value on 3rd regardless. You are going to be first to act most of the time on 4th so show strength and just raise 3rd then bet out 4th. If nothing gets too scary you can fire again on 5th and the field should thin considerably in the face of your pressure.
If you have something like Jacks, you may want to just limp and hope you can thin the field later on with a raise. I tend not to give a free card on 4th...I can see how mathematically, you make it incorrect for people to call on 5th by keeping the pot small, but you have to balance that with the lost expectation on 4th. If someone bets early on 4th and there are 4 callers, there really is no point to raise with those Jacks though I would agree....you may not have a big enough equity edge, especially if there are some potential big draws out there.

[iamastud]

Betting or raising doesn't only serve to knock people out. It also serves as a value bet where you have what might be the best hand or at least a realg ood hand. If your hand has good value, bet it for value. The best hand, has the highest equity in the hand and so the larger the pot, the higher your expected win is. So don't be afraid not to bet becasue everybody's gonna call. Try to get the best value for your hand if you feel it is the best hand at that time.

[BlueSmurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I am familiar with the concept of not bloating the pot with a good heads-up hand on the early streets when there are multiple villains and you don’t have a chance to get anyone to fold. For example, 5 people call the bring-in and I have a big pair with a live kicker, no point in raising as I am bloating the pot which will encourage people to chase all the way. And nobody is folding to a single bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once made a post here about it but concerning Razz, and the good folks here actually made me understand it (don't 3-bet a 7 re-raising your 6), but I'm not sure it applies to the scenario you're describing. When the low limit stud players turn over the inevitable Q72r time after time, I feel you can't go all wrong playing your big pairs fast right out of the gates. You've sort of explained it for me, because the thing is low limit stud plays rather passive and so you can't count on there being a bet on 4th to raise and shut out the field just as you can't count on anybody raising you if you choose to bet yourself. The result is bizarre. You'll end up playing mini pots with your premium pairs and handing out charity free cards like there's no tomorrow.

When you play fast and make paint up and nobody hits their weird draws, you get to drag in big pots only having contributed 25% yourself.

I don't see the alternative.

Cheers,

Smurf

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone bets early on 4th and there are 4 callers, there really is no point to raise with those Jacks though I would agree....you may not have a big enough equity edge, especially if there are some potential big draws out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your jacks may be the best hand at the moment, but still have no equity edge at all against many draws. Look at this sim:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2484666
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s js jh 4d 8d - tc td 3s ac - kh qh 2h 6c - 6d 7s 8c 4c
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 8d 4d Jh 120727 24.15 379037 75.81 236 0.05 0.242
3s Ac Tc Td 133301 26.66 366699 73.34 0 0.00 0.267
6c Kh Qh 2h 110766 22.15 389233 77.85 1 0.00 0.222
7s 8c 4c 6d 134969 26.99 364794 72.96 237 0.05 0.270

Note who is actually in the lead!

[PokrLikeItsProse]

One thing that you look at is the relationship of your kicker to your big pair. If you have two suited cards or two consecutive or one-gapped cards and your longshot flush/straight possibilities are fairly live, then your hand has a better shot multiway and you should be less reluctant to raise.

Another thing is the sort of hands your opponents are playing. If they are playing completely random hands, then an early raise has more value than if they are playing more reasonable (if still unprofitable) cards. The hands which you have to be concerned about in multiway pots are the players with three to a straight or flush on fourth street as those are the hands which find themselves not making a mistake by calling when you bloat the pot.

One thing that you can consider is checking fourth if it will allow you to possibly check-raise on fifth.

[Andy B]

My opinion is that if you have Aces or Kings on third street and your cards are live, you're best off raising multiple limpers, even if no one will fold.

[Sevenfold]

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that if you have Aces or Kings on third street and your cards are live, you're best off raising multiple limpers, even if no one will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have avoided this discussion in other threads, because of the constant argument that "raising makes it correct for them to chase."

I agree with you here, I also almost always raise aces etc., regardless of the limpers. I see too many 5,6,8 callers not to punish them early.

If putting more money in early makes it correct to chase, lets each put in $100 in a 3/6 game when I have aces on 3rd street and they have?? Then they could all play to the river 'correctly'.

I'm not saying the concepts invalid, just thats its used or quoted incorrectly most of the time.

[SweetLuckyMe]

Depends on the quality of your opponents. At a typical low limit table I feel you're better off raising 3rd and taking your value right there. There's nothing wrong with raising in these games on value alone - and a big pair with a live big kicker does have good value five handed. Just realize that hands will develop where you'll often have to fold after raising. Don't get married to a hand just because you raised 3rd.

[iamastud]

well put.