NLTRN: Bluff 3-betting and bluff check-raising (Part I)

[XxPenguinxX]

I've been reviewing my play over the last month or so, and have found that there are two things that I am not doing half as much as I used to, and certainly nowhere near as much as I thought I was. They are:

<ul type="square">[*]Bluff 3-betting OOP preflop - ie 3-betting without a good hand; and[*]check-raising the flop - ie without a good flop fit.[/list]
Obviously the definition of a "good" hand and a "good" flop fit change depending on the opponent, but for the sake of argument say a good hand is AA-88, AKo-AJo, AKs-ATs, KQ.

I've been thinking about this, and I can find some good arguments for not using these tools that frequently, but at the same time there are some good arguments in their favour as well. Taking them in turn:

<font color="red"> Edit: on reflection, I'm going to make this into 2 posts, because otherwise it will get too long and it will be hard for people to respond in a focused way. </font>

3-betting OOP preflop

3-betting preflop is obviously an effective way to extract value from a strong starting hand. However, if you only 3-bet with a strong hand, you are likely hit one of two responses:

(a) Villian folds preflop; or
(b) Villian folds to your bet on the flop unless he hits a monster.

Unless you're running hot, you're not going to get enough good hands to 3-bet enough to make him play with / back at you without a strong holding. So it follows that we should be 3-betting with weak holdings also.

However, even at the second blind level (in most structures, although I know this is the first level in FT turbos) of 15-30, this is a big chip commitment. If Villain raises to 90 (3xBB), a 3-bet of 3x his bet is going to be 270. If he calls and you miss, you're almost committed to a continuation bet, which needs to be at least half the pot, so another 270. If he genuinely had a hand or has hit the flop, he's going to call or re-raise you, at which point you're probably going to have to give up. You will have committed over a third of your starting stack on a bluff.

It may be that the answer is to 3-bet heavily at the 10-20 stage, where the chip commitment is not as great, to get the metagame benefits and slow down an aggressive preflop raiser. I'm not sure.

How do you all approach this situation?

[jay_shark]

Good post .

Here are my opinions on the matter .

If you're willing to call a raise oop , then there are times that you should be willing to re-raise them as well . I will never re-raise with the very worst hands as you'll be in uncomfortable situations postflop , but you should be willing to randomize with all hands you would have called a raise with pre . Whether you wish to raise or not often times has very little to do with your hole cards and a lot to do with his tendencies and how he handles the situation .

I'm also not any more inclined to 3 bet in the earlier rounds than I am in the middle rounds . If it's positive EV to 3 bet in the first round , then it should also be positive EV to 3 bet in the third round ; all things being equal .

[XxPenguinxX]

Thanks for the response, Jay. The randomising point is well taken. I suppose the percentage of raising where you would otherwise have called depends on the opponent.

Anyone else? Come on, guys....

[Kalledrengen]

Very interresting post, would love to hear other peoples opinon on this matter aswell.

I'm pretty sure I do not 3-bet enough myself for the reason you also mention. Nothing feels more annoying than getting floated or check raised on a flop you missed, when you have just put in like half of your stack. Then you are completely lost on the turn. You will hate yourself if you shove and he calls with tP, likewise you will hate if you check and he then pots it.. Hate that spot.

Would be very interresting to hear from someone who uses 3-bet as a main weapon in their heads up matches, to hear what kind of experience they have using it.

[XxPenguinxX]

Bump - c'mon, guys!

[shyturtle27]

I'm positive I don't 3-bet enough. I'll occasionally do it with a slightly less than great hand like KJo or KTs. I do find it is a huge chip commitment and find my self c-betting half the pot. Is this wrong? Also do we always have to 3-bet it 3x the raise? What about 2.5x? Does it make a difference? Also, say opponent mixes OTB raises from min bets to 3bb...what is our 3-betting range when he min-raises OTB? I'm studying OOP play today. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[jay_shark]

Some players only mini-bet otb with stronger hands to lure you into making postflop mistakes . Against these players, you need a stronger hand to re-raise them with .

In general , if you're willing to call a raise from a 2x, 3x or 4x bet , then it's often a better move to re-raise!!

I think this is a golden rule that often gets overlooked at .

[dboy23]

I just don't think 3betting is very viable in HUSNGs because of the low stack sizes in BBs. I very rarely 3bet in the later rounds unless a reasonable 3bet would be allin or close to allin.

In the early rounds it really commits you and that is why opponents often just fold hands you beat or call and only continue on flops they really like.

I think in general it is much better to call and c/r flop in most situations.

deciding whether or not to 3bet pf from the BB and what to do on the flop is one of the hardest part of HUSNGs imo.

[daveT]

I agree with dboy here. Thinking aside about frequencies, I think that there are two ways of thinking this. One, if your opponent is too loose, you would obviously like to 3-bet with any Q+, suited broadway, 99+. If your opponent is likely to fold to a 3-bet, you should be more inclined to 3-bet.

The biggest problem with the OP is that you are re-raising way too much, creating a $600 pot. It does not cripple your stack too much in the early rounds to have a 1230 stack, but in the later rounds you most certainly should not three-bet unless you have something you won't mind calling a shove with or something that you will likely take to SD, at minimum AJs, etc.

I usually re-raise to 200, this is ample raise to gauge the strength of your opponent's hand, as a re-raise will mean strength a fold will mean weakness, and a call means you better be pretty good at guessing what your opponent is doing. For the most part they min-re-raise or shove with a strong holding.

I don't have any set thinking on when or why to re-raise, I know that I do and that I don't sometimes.

[soop]

I don't think you need to worry about mixing in 3bets with weak hands to protect your strong hands. SNG's usually don't last long enough for anyone to get a read on what you're doing.

However, 3betting with air is viable against the right opponents. Lots of people call 3bets but fold if they miss the flop, which makes it a decent play for building chips.