Call or Fold?

kevxu315 · #1 08-22-2007, 09:54 PM

you're delt J4 on the button. No raising pre-flop. 3 players to the flop (all of you are approx. even stacked).

flop is J J x.

first player bets 70% of the pot. Big blind pushes all in. What do you do?

I think this decision tough because the first player raised. It would still be a tough decision had the first player not raised but it becomes infinitely tougher....

I think the right move here is to fold a) because you are not pot committed in any way (the game theory POV) b) you have absolutely have no good read on either opponent (the logical POV)

*to clarify the x card is greater than 4 but less than 10

Assuming this is a tournament setting vs a cash game would you guys play this hand differently?

jay_shark · #2 08-22-2007, 11:38 PM

What are you doing playing j4 to begin with ?
Did you plan on bluffing with this hand on a later street ?
Certainly this shouldn't be a call as your default play no matter how many players are involved .

As for the flop , you're in a difficult situation which is why you shouldn't have played this hand to begin with . Even when you flop trips , it isn't guaranteed that you will earn anything from it .

Folding may be reasonable here but again a lot has to do with what odds you're receiving to make the call . More importantly , how much money has the BB pushed with . If he was short stacked when he made the push then it can mean a whole lot of things . If on the other hand he had a lot of money to play around with , then it's more indicative of a quality hand .

Also , the fact that no player has raised pre-flop should ring alarms when the pot suddenly gets big on the flop . If it's a rainbowed flop then you should be more concerned .

You cannot possibly answer this question without knowing how much the BB has pushed in for in relation to the size of the pot . If this is during the bubble stages of a tourney then you should be more inclined to call .

If it's in the early stages of a tourney where the blinds are low then it's not worth calling with this hand .

kevxu315 · #3 08-23-2007, 09:35 AM

Well the pot would be very small relative to the chip stacks (like say average chip stack of remaining players on the flop is 500K and blinds are 2K 4K). (again all 3 of you limped pre-flop...again ignoring whether it was wise to play J4 to begin with on the button)

And as noted in the initial post, all three of you are even stacked so no one is short compared to someone else. Thanks.

Nairb · #4 08-23-2007, 10:19 AM

Fold PF

jay_shark · #5 08-23-2007, 10:28 AM

Without a doubt you should fold if the blinds are small in relation your stack .

The guy pushing is telling you that he has a strong hand which may very well be a full house . If there is 20BB's in the pot and the BB pushes in for around 500 BB's , then for his push to be positive EV he is asserting you that he has the best hand around 500/20 = 25 times for every time he has the worst of it . In other words , unless he is a donk , he is very confident that his hand is the best .

kevxu315 · #6 08-23-2007, 10:42 AM

Thanks...One of my friends was like "you have to call, you have to call, how could u fold trips?" Thanks for the clarification esp using EV.

o.O

*and I agree that early in tournaments this would also be the correct move.

kevxu315 · #7 08-23-2007, 10:48 AM

btw...i accidentially posted this on the "home games" board first and there was universal agreement from the players that this was "an easy call" (at least among 3 people there)

nUbs !!

thoman8r · #8 08-23-2007, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
btw...i accidentially posted this on the "home games" board first and there was universal agreement from the players that this was "an easy call" (at least among 3 people there)

nUbs !!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're limping with hands like J4 and calling other people "nUbs"???

kevxu315 · #9 08-23-2007, 10:55 AM

lmao. whats wrong with limping with J4 here? (not that i would do it all the time, but if you haven't gotten any opportunities to play anything in a couple of hours and you're getting a free limp...why not? )

PantsOnFire · #10 08-23-2007, 10:59 AM

This is a very strange play. Because this is so odd, you would need some info on BB. If BB has Jx or xx for the boat, most players don't shove that big of an overbet. They usually try to play the hand like a fiddle.

It could be a pf slowplay with AA or KK.

It could also be a massive stone cold bluff.

I'd be inclined to call this in a tourney. The only players doing this with the nuts are complete beginners or very crafty players. But even a crafty player can't expect a call here very often. And if the player has something like J5, a split pot is very likely.

I think in a cash game, this is rarely a stone cold bluff so I'd likely fold.