Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act?

Jimmy Afternoon · #1 06-20-2007, 11:35 PM

Any thoughts?

SNOWBALL · #2 06-20-2007, 11:52 PM

YES.
There is a species of beetle that eats it's mother from the inside and explodes out of her when it is born. Evolution is ABSOLUTELY NOT YOUR FRIEND.
We are NOT evolved to life happy, healthy lives. We are evolved to reproduce and make sure our children survive. A lot of the time that means living a miserable life because our genes tell us to.

The semantical argument of "oh well you wouldn't make that choice if it didn't make you happy" is utter BS. Do you really think that a father diving in front of a bus receives a "happiness" reward for diving in front of a bus to save his child? Obviously not. Furthermore, he does NOT believe that he will receive a happiness reward either.

Jimmy Afternoon · #3 06-20-2007, 11:59 PM

what if he's diving in front of the bus for religious reasons? What about acts of love?

Phil153 · #4 06-21-2007, 12:12 AM

I think you'd have to argue "someone else's child" for that one to stick among the skeptics here.

And even then the Sklansky-like cynics would continue to assume the premise that he got some utility from it. The foundation of a rational mind, according to them, is maximizing utility Which means that rational, non crazy people can't be selfless, because how can you be selfless if you're maximizing your own utility? It's a stupid discussion.

kerowo · #5 06-21-2007, 12:12 AM

Depends on how big of a nit you are. If the act has to be for someone else and the person doing it has to not only not get anything material from the act but must in fact feel crappy about it, not just ambivalent, but crappy, then probably not.

A better question is how good does someone have to feel before letting them do something for you becomes creepy.

Phil153 · #6 06-21-2007, 12:13 AM

Here's a better question: Define "selfless".

Jimmy Afternoon · #7 06-21-2007, 12:22 AM

Well ,that's what I'm asking. If it is not possible to make a rational decision without utility, then that's really disturbing. But I want to figure it out, regardless. Would a selfless act of love then be called an act of utility because it makes you feel good? What if it doesn't make you feel good? What if you're in love with someone who doesn't love you back and totally takes advantage of you for their own good, but you continue to do anything for that person? Where's the utility in that? Or would that make you insane?

vhawk01 · #8 06-21-2007, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
YES.
There is a species of beetle that eats it's mother from the inside and explodes out of her when it is born. Evolution is ABSOLUTELY NOT YOUR FRIEND.
We are NOT evolved to life happy, healthy lives. We are evolved to reproduce and make sure our children survive. A lot of the time that means living a miserable life because our genes tell us to.

The semantical argument of "oh well you wouldn't make that choice if it didn't make you happy" is utter BS. Do you really think that a father diving in front of a bus receives a "happiness" reward for diving in front of a bus to save his child? Obviously not. Furthermore, he does NOT believe that he will receive a happiness reward either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happiness = things that aid in survival/reproduction. Its silly to claim we aren't evolved to be happy...we wouldn't be happy if it wasn't to encourage us to do the things we are supposed to do.

Phil153 · #9 06-21-2007, 12:31 AM

I believe people can and do make selfless decisions all the time, but if you analyze everything from the point of a rational/logical mind, as Sklansky does, then such a thing isn't possible.

Selfless decisions to me are where you put aside your wants for the benefit of others. This can be as simple as being polite to someone you dislike, even though you'd rather make him feel like crap and would suffer no consequences if you did so. Or getting your girlfriend off even though you'd rather just fall asleep. Understanding and considering the feelings of others, and making a conscious choice to act differently for their benefit, even though it causes you distress, discomfort, cognitive dissonance, or annoyance, is a purely selfless act IMO.

vhawk01 · #10 06-21-2007, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe people can and do make selfless decisions all the time, but if you analyze everything from the point of a rational/logical mind, as Sklansky does, then such a thing isn't possible.

Selfless decisions to me are where you put aside your wants for the benefit of others. This can be as simple as being polite to someone you dislike, even though you'd rather make him feel like crap and would suffer no consequences if you did so. Or getting your girlfriend off even though you'd rather just fall asleep. Understanding and considering the feelings of others, and making a conscious choice to act differently for their benefit, even though it causes you distress, discomfort, cognitive dissonance, or annoyance, is a purely selfless act IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Main point: This topic sucks. We are trying to show that best != best.

Side point: But WHY do you DO it, then?