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#21
10-11-2006, 06:05 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Part of what thereotically makes our nation stronger is related to how well we educate our children. [/ QUOTE ] False. We have some of the stupidest kids in the civilized world. Most learning doesn't take place in the classroom. [/ QUOTE ] I don't believe we always had the stupidest kids. Though I do believe that our public education pre-college is weak. And I believe a LOT of that has to do with the public/local politics meddling with school and diluting it. (I wish I could remember the name of the great book I read on this... skewered everyone equally) Just because our schools have degraded and are mismanaged does not mean that the notion of free public education is the problem. I think the OP in this thread points to WHY our schools suck. 
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#22
10-11-2006, 06:24 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, straight to the love or leave it. Nice for it to come out so quick. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I didn't tell you to leave it. Frankly I could care less if you stay or go. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to be opposed to the very notion of a government and certainly a lot of the ideals of our particular government. It seems to upset you. Its within your power to fix it. [ QUOTE ] So your claim is that you actually have ownership of other people's children? [/ QUOTE ] No. And you're getting so ridiculous that I'm getting bored just reading it. Seriously. [ QUOTE ] Such that you or your representatives should take higher precedence in selecting their education than their parents? Personally, I find this perverse and grotesque. [/ QUOTE ] That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. The other end of it is 99% of parents are not qualified to teach every subject or oversee it, keep up with science, know history, etc. [ QUOTE ] Can you at least acknowledge that the state can more easily pervert the educational system to its own ends when it controls that educational system? [/ QUOTE ] Certainly. But it appears the opposite is happening. Minority interest groups have subverted the educational process and perverted it. Frankly, the national government isn't the problem. [ QUOTE ] So what? How is that a case for coercive, centrally planned, state run monopoly education? [/ QUOTE ] That is not what this thread is about nor what I'm saying. Nowhere have I said that things can't be fixed or innovated. Merely that I think having national educational standards are important... standards that don't cater to the religious beliefs of a vocal minority. [ QUOTE ] So? That the population has been duped by decades of a state-run educational monopoly into believing that a state-run educational monopoly is necessary does not imply that a state-run educational monopoly is actually necessary. Do you see why? [/ QUOTE ] Again... you're going off subject. Sounds like another AC hijack or something. You're not only misrepresenting what people are saying but you're going off topic. Not interested. [ QUOTE ] Bad example. The health care industry in the United States is one of the most heavily regulated, intervened in, and monopolized. Just like our education system, the results are high costs and poor results. And contrary to your belief, the Canadian and UK health care systems are far worse. For a brief introduction (from the insurance end) see this thread. [/ QUOTE ] There's plenty to agree and disagree on here. But I think we would draw different conclusions... the free market is not necessarily the best solution for everything. And I think there's plenty of evidence. Though (if I'm remembering correctly that you're an ACer)... they have almost a religious faith that anything government run must be bad and the free market/profit driven model is the best for everything. And I think its more a religion then anything viable. But I don't want to hijack the thread either so I'll stop. [ QUOTE ] Why do you believe education has to be a one-size-fits-all cog-generation machine? I can't imagine anything more soulless and destructive. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly... I don't know what kind of education you had. I went to public schools (most on military bases in Europe til I was 10 and then suburban schools after) and I mostly found it rewarding, I enjoyed learning and am glad to have had the education I did. I'm really not seeing what your seeing. I sense this would be a long conversation better had over a beer then trying to explore all the angles you're getting at in this response. I am curious to know the story of your violent objections to public education and could discuss the differences endlessly but I honestly feel like we'd both be writing books. If you're in NYC then perhaps we have a beer and can discuss public education and poker one night... I don't know. My simple respose to this thread is nothing more then as someone who supports public education, I think its frightening that religious groups are diluting our school systems because they want their religion taught in school. (I was raised Lutheran and my family was perfectly happy to separate my religious education on Sunday with my reading/writing/arithmatic/science/history taught m-f.)
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#23
10-11-2006, 06:41 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ah, straight to the love or leave it. Nice for it to come out so quick. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I didn't tell you to leave it. Frankly I could care less if you stay or go. I'm merely pointing out that you seem to be opposed to the very notion of a government and certainly a lot of the ideals of our particular government. It seems to upset you. Its within your power to fix it. [/ QUOTE ] I'm an anarchist. And it is within my power to fix it. I can attempt to convince as many others as possible that coercive, centrally planned monopolies can never produce the quantity and quality of results that can be obtained on a competitive free market. That's what I'm doing. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So your claim is that you actually have ownership of other people's children? [/ QUOTE ] No. And you're getting so ridiculous that I'm getting bored just reading it. Seriously. [/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what you are claiming. By denying this you are only deluding yourself. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Such that you or your representatives should take higher precedence in selecting their education than their parents? Personally, I find this perverse and grotesque. [/ QUOTE ] That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. The other end of it is 99% of parents are not qualified to teach every subject or oversee it, keep up with science, know history, etc. [/ QUOTE ] They don't have to. I am not qualified to build a car, yet I can obtain a superb one. I am not qualified to grill a perfect steak or make the perfect canoli, yet I can obtain both. I am not qualified to produce a blockbuster hollywood movie, yet I can see one any night of the week. I am not qualified to fly a plane to the other side of the country, yet I can buy a ticket and get there. I don't need to be qualified to teach a kid music or biology to have it done on the free market. That's what the free market does. It's called the division of labor. Works fantastically. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Can you at least acknowledge that the state can more easily pervert the educational system to its own ends when it controls that educational system? [/ QUOTE ] Certainly. But it appears the opposite is happening. Minority interest groups have subverted the educational process and perverted it. Frankly, the national government isn't the problem. [/ QUOTE ] Lol. And how exactly have they subverted and perverted it? Through what mechanism? The government, of course. The school board, state legislatures, the Deparment of Education, etc. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So what? How is that a case for coercive, centrally planned, state run monopoly education? [/ QUOTE ] That is not what this thread is about nor what I'm saying. Nowhere have I said that things can't be fixed or innovated. Merely that I think having national educational standards are important... standards that don't cater to the religious beliefs of a vocal minority. [/ QUOTE ] Which is the crux of what I'm interested in. All you want is to cram your personal ideas down the throats of other people's kids. Which makes you no better than the religious zealots who want to cram their beliefs down yours. Meanwhile, you refuse to acknowledge that if there was no monopoly, there would be no problem. You could send your kid to a school that taught exactly what you wanted. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So? That the population has been duped by decades of a state-run educational monopoly into believing that a state-run educational monopoly is necessary does not imply that a state-run educational monopoly is actually necessary. Do you see why? [/ QUOTE ] Again... you're going off subject. Sounds like another AC hijack or something. You're not only misrepresenting what people are saying but you're going off topic. Not interested. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not off the subject at all. There is no argument if there is no monopoly. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Bad example. The health care industry in the United States is one of the most heavily regulated, intervened in, and monopolized. Just like our education system, the results are high costs and poor results. And contrary to your belief, the Canadian and UK health care systems are far worse. For a brief introduction (from the insurance end) see this thread. [/ QUOTE ] There's plenty to agree and disagree on here. But I think we would draw different conclusions... the free market is not necessarily the best solution for everything. And I think there's plenty of evidence. Though (if I'm remembering correctly that you're an ACer)... they have almost a religious faith that anything government run must be bad and the free market/profit driven model is the best for everything. And I think its more a religion then anything viable. But I don't want to hijack the thread either so I'll stop. [/ QUOTE ] You are uninformed. But I can't change your mind in this thread. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why do you believe education has to be a one-size-fits-all cog-generation machine? I can't imagine anything more soulless and destructive. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly... I don't know what kind of education you had. I went to public schools (most on military bases in Europe til I was 10 and then suburban schools after) and I mostly found it rewarding, I enjoyed learning and am glad to have had the education I did. I'm really not seeing what your seeing. I sense this would be a long conversation better had over a beer then trying to explore all the angles you're getting at in this response. [/ QUOTE ] I went to public school and I turned out fine. I sat in the back of every class and read paperback scifi novels from the age of 7 until I got the hell out. Public school didn't do a damn thing for me but waste my time. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. [ QUOTE ] I am curious to know the story of your violent objections to public education and could discuss the differences endlessly but I honestly feel like we'd both be writing books. [/ QUOTE ] Probably. [ QUOTE ] If you're in NYC then perhaps we have a beer and can discuss public education and poker one night... I don't know. [/ QUOTE ] Stop by if you're in Durham. [ QUOTE ] My simple respose to this thread is nothing more then as someone who supports public education, I think its frightening that religious groups are diluting our school systems because they want their religion taught in school. [/ QUOTE ] They feel the same way about you, and they have just as much right to try and seize control of the monopoly school system as you do. [ QUOTE ] (I was raised Lutheran and my family was perfectly happy to separate my religious education on Sunday with my reading/writing/arithmatic/science/history taught m-f.) [/ QUOTE ] See, isn't it easier when parents get to decide what to teach their kids?
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#24
10-11-2006, 07:33 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
There is no market feedback that shuts down poor schools and provides funds for the expansion of good schools. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, there is. It's called "home ownership". Supposedly, much of the poor schooling in the US corresponds with poorer neighborhoods (plus some cultural issues).
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#25
10-11-2006, 07:49 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
Home schooling is becoming pretty popular here. Interestingly, the folks most likely to take it up are the 'science-deniers' that the OP was getting exercised about.
Most of the atheists, anarchists, freethinkers etc couldn't be bothered, and would rather pay someone else to do it. And then criticise them of course...
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#26
10-11-2006, 08:50 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
My God how I hate these shrill, hand-wringing rants "in defense of science." (and how could you not want to defend science???)
I hate to break it to the OP, but science will not be going away just because some kid's mom disagrees about evolution and cosmology at the level of sophistication of "God did it" and some busybody unearthed something about Noah's flood in a grand canyon bookstore.
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#27
10-11-2006, 09:20 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
You mean, isn't the role of public education to indoctrinate children with whatever information the state believes to be appropriate? Yes. Which is why it's a horrible thing. [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely right. Forcing a specific world view on a specific populace against their will is a sick act. If the cult of "2+2=5" wants to believe in their own doctrine, it is not the government's place to take their children away and force them to repeatedly recite "2+2=4" or face punishment. Of course, if a "2+2=5" cult member voluntarily decides to take a math class, they may not do so well -- but it will not have been at the government's gunpoint.
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#29
10-11-2006, 10:33 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Part of what thereotically makes our nation stronger is related to how well we educate our children. [/ QUOTE ] False. We have some of the stupidest kids in the civilized world. Most learning doesn't take place in the classroom. [/ QUOTE ] Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the "smartest" kids in the world in countries with really strong public school systems? [/ QUOTE ] No. While they are still publicly funded, the parents get to freely choose what school to send their kids to, and the money goes with the kid. Including religious schools, technical schools, arts school, etc. Hence there is actual competition amongst schools and a market mechanism that kills off bad schools. See for example Belgium. [/ QUOTE ] No, the top 4 countries here have educational programs that would enrage your typical ACer. I think if you want to argue against it on a moral ground, fine, but the top countries invariably have compulsory public education.
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#30
10-11-2006, 10:39 PM
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Re: Sciene under attack (while you slept)
Also, education is compulsory in belgium. WHile there are three different types of schools they all have much of the same curricula and standards that are agreed upon by the govt.
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