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Old 11-03-2007, 03:35 AM
sweetjazz sweetjazz is offline
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Default Whoops I flopped top and bottom

Live 5/10 game in New Orleans. Usually this game is very good, but the night I played the game was mediocre.

UTG in this hand is a loose donkey. He overplays some hands preflop and postflop, but he's not a maniac. The MP player is a tricky loose player. He uses aggression selectively and seems to play well postflop. Both will see flops with a wide range of hands, especially in unraised pots.

They both limp in, the SB completes, and I check the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I have $600 or so behind and the other players cover me.

Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks and I lead out for $30 (good?). (The pot has $40 in it after the preflop action.) UTG calls, and MP raises to $75 total. SB folds and it's back to me. I should ...

raise? if so, how much?
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:28 AM
feelixthegreek feelixthegreek is offline
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Default Re: Whoops I flopped top and bottom

Seems like a good situation. I envision MP on a FD or an OESD (including 69, a popular hand) given the size of the raise. It's the perfect size to call with good draws, so why would he let two people get good odds to beat him? You see players down there treat their good draws limit-style, mini-raising to build a pot instead of applying fold equity.

Also, the way you describe both UTG and MP, they seem the types to raise any A-paint PF, and for that matter mid PPs like 77 or 88. Again I'm going by your reads. So A8 is the only hand to fear.

Given the stacks, I think would raise to $200 ad if you get called shove on a safe turn card. Calling seems bad 3 ways because to many cards kill you or are action killers.

BTW, I also suspect they underestimate your holding, since flopping 2 pair EP is an almost automatic c/r hand.
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Old 11-03-2007, 04:14 PM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: Whoops I flopped top and bottom

Pretty much agree with feelix, except I'd make it at least 250 (pot raise is to ~300), you could also just shove for 2x pot if they were either retarded (would call with a flush draw) or like to make hero calls (why would you shove with a good hand, so they call with Ax).

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Old 11-08-2007, 04:21 AM
Surf Surf is offline
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Default Re: Whoops I flopped top and bottom

felix's analysis is pretty sound and would apply well in an online game, however live many players happily limp 88-type hands so i think bottom and mid sets are both a potential worry.

When it comes down to it I don't feel thrilled playing for my stack with top-and-bottom pair in an unraised pot against not-terrible live opponents, so I would probably call and re-eval turn, usually calling again, and keeping my options open on the river depending on how he plays draws / made hands etc.

edit: actually 60bbs deep I might be willing to get it in, but i'd probably do whatever encouraged the most spew - calling flop and donking a blank turn could be an effective bluff-inducer from a semibluff that wants to maintain its fold equity and recognizes the line as blocking-ish.

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