whats better to call or shove this flop

[AaronOC]

i shove here

[traz]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i shove as well with the dead money, we might not get a ton of action if we call and hit anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

we might get more action though, so it works both ways.

FWIW I spoke to sightless on aim before he posted this hand and I said I really liked a call.

[Phytopath]

I have no doubt that shoving is definately +EV, but calling with such a monster might actually be better.

Obviously if you hit a K on the turn you will be free-rolling against maybe 2-3 here, or a flush could come up against a smaller flush. I dunno just babbling, have no idea which is better actually. I would probably shove, just because I know doing so is very profitable...just not sure if it is the most profitable.

[KLJ]

this seems like a call

[Zen_Approach]

[ QUOTE ]


Imo - Shove>Call> Fold >Min-Raising

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

I guess I like to gamble for a huge pot in this spot. I think a smallish raise (maybe to 40ish) will look very strong here. A worse draw might shove given how much is now in the pot. I think a shove shuts down the action here, and we are a decent favourite over anything other than flopped straight.

Then again calling and drawing isn't terrible, nor is an all-in. It is possible that a lot of our outs are held by our opponents.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call

[/ QUOTE ]
If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds.

Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else?

[feelixthegreek]

I hear the arguments for a push, but how much fold equity do we really have against all these callers?

[fees]

yeah ur gonna get called here by something that beats u so dont shove

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually kinda, really like call

[/ QUOTE ]
If I can try to explain what carrotsnake is thinking, we have 2 very good nut draws. In a pot this multiway, a whole lot of our implied odds come from doodz with non nut draws that will get it in when we hit the turn (lower spades in particular) While shoving is certainly +EV with all the dead money in the pot, you're never getting called by a worse draw and you're often flipping-ish when you get called. Just flatting the flop allows you to realize your implied odds.

Also, if we just call this flop and hit a spade, king or 8 on the turn I think that I like donking more than check/raising. Anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]


If there is another spade draw then that leaves little spade outs. If the turn pairs the board we're pretty much [censored] to continue.

What makes you think another fd is folding if you push anyway?

[Hail Eris]

The fact that so many people are interested in this flop reduces the EV of shoving, since many of our outs are likely to be out in the other players' hands.