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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:14 PM
Esau fos Esau fos is offline
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Default 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

Sometimes I find myself in situations where I realy don't know what would be the optimal way to proceed. Just like the situation in this hand.
my questions are:
- how would you proceed against different type of players in these type of situations?(all suit flop and hitting flush on turn)
- Should I play this hand on the flop different?

I have no reads

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26.45
UTG+1: $36.82
Hero: $25.44
Button: $24.74
SB: $29.01
BB: $24.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $3</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6.35, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $4</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($14.35, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero...</font>
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:51 PM
il_martilo il_martilo is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

I check yet again, although you need to CR semi bluff the flop IMO. Let him keep bluffing here, if he's aggro, he'll bet.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Arp220 Arp220 is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

nit - c/r the flop because if the flush hits you're unlikely to get any action.

tag - c/r the turn

lag - c/c the turn and let him hang himself
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:54 PM
You're No Daisy You're No Daisy is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

Check/call the turn and shove the river. Shoving the river will make villain go, "why would he shove?" He might just look you up.

AC
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:58 PM
NeverScurred NeverScurred is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

I'm 4betting him here preflop. I don't mind a flat call in position, but OOP without initiative you're just gonna be check/folding most flops, and much of the time you'll be folding the best hand. Having to hit to win in in a big pot with small implied odds sucks.

As played, CRAI turn if he bets any reasonable amount. If he checks, lead river.


As played, probably c/r
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:01 PM
bsball8806 bsball8806 is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

[ QUOTE ]

Check/call the turn and shove the river. Shoving the river will make villain go, "why would he shove?" He might just look you up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Shoving river is probably the only thing worse than c/f the river. He won't call you with anything other then the As or 8s10s.

Just lead out the turn, c/r will fold out everything worse, and get you called by the 2 hands that beat you. Plus, there's always the possibility he checks like 2pr or a set behind, and the board pairs on the end.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:23 PM
DawnToDusk DawnToDusk is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

The problem with making the flush on the turn is that it puts up four to a flush which causes your opponent (regardless of who they are in most cases) to slow down considerably (unless they have it too). Because of this it is sometimes hard to extract a lot of value from them.

This hand is also a little special because it was 3bet preflop and now you potentially face a villain who may have the nut flush. You made a standard raise PF and then got 3bet. On the flop you checked and he made a standard continuation bet. Without reads I am just going to assume the player plays like a standard .25/.50 NL player until I have notes that tell me otherwise. The range for this player I have to assume is something along the lines of AJ+, 99+. I picked this range because it fits his actions so far. He saw your initial raise and decided he could 3bet you because of his position and/or hand strength. This explains why he may have picked a hand like AJo to 3bet you with his position. On a side note without notes I don’t 3bet AJo like this and would rather 3bet a speculative hand if I don’t have notes. His 99+ hands also make sense in terms of him 3betting you.

On the flop you checked and he made a continuation bet. His range is still pretty much the same in my mind. He could be betting AJ for value here or his AQ/AK (while holding the ace of spades). He could also be making a standard continuation bet after raising with 99+. He may have a pair of nines and tens and seeing if he can take the pot down right now and may just shut down after you call on that wet monotone board regardless of what falls on the turn (unless it improves him). He could also be betting JJ+ for pure value. With that being said I think the next question you need to ask yourself is “How can I extract the most value from my hand while losing the least if I am in fact behind?”

I think if you were to bet here it would allow your opponent to play properly. He could (possibly if he is a thinking player) lay down his hand thinking that you have a hand that contains a high spade because you raised PF and then called a 3bet. It shows some strength on your part. It would also allow him to get his money in if he held the ace of spade. If we check here we may create a situation where our opponent may bluff at us with a weaker hand. If we check and he bets I think the next play is to move all in. He may have us beat with the ace of spades but if we just call we may not get anymore money on the river. And if he does have the ace of spades the rest of the money is going in on the river anyways just because of the odds the pot is going to be offering you. So if we shove over the top we may get our vill to feel like he is priced in with a set of jacks or something like QQ when he holds the queen of spades.

I feel like that is how I would play the hand. Does anyone take a similar line or think the same?
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:26 PM
DawnToDusk DawnToDusk is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

But don't you think betting out on the turn allows our opponent to play correctly? He can probably deduce that we have some strength in our hand because we raised PF and then called a 3bet. If we bet he can fold hands that are worse than ours. If we check he may take a stab at the pot with hands that are worse than ours and then we can come over the top and he may just call feeling priced in. I feel like checking will let him make the most mistakes here.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:28 PM
DawnToDusk DawnToDusk is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

We don't know if the player is a nit/TAG/LAG yet. OP does ask what you would do against different players but has no reads so really I don't know if he was confused or not.

What line do you take to maximize your expecatation against all these players?
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  #10  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:53 PM
Esau fos Esau fos is offline
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Default Re: 25NL Flush on Turn how to proceed?

@Dawntodusk: I don't really understand what you mean by confused. But I wasn't during the hand. After the hand was played I was thinking about the way to extract max value in this situation and how to think about it.
this villain isn't a LAG seeing the short period of his play. More in the range nit/TAG
I really liked the post with the extended thought.thanks!
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