100NL - QQ facing utg raise

spence79 · #1 11-10-2007, 01:25 PM

Villian is 16/7 over 150 hands

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $149.60
UTG+1: $84.45
Hero (MP): $107.60
CO: $78.25
BTN: $57.50
SB: $59.40
BB: $11.05

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG raises to $4, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $4, 4 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6

Turn: ($21.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($21.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG bets $14, Hero calls $14

Standard line? Or should I be throwing in a raise at some point? I'm 8-12 tabling and haven't played a memorable pot with villian yet so don't have any line on his play other than his stats.

PokerFun007 · #2 11-10-2007, 01:28 PM

I'd raise the flop to see where you are at in this hand. If he shoves, then I'd probably fold. A flat call looks like AK more than AA or KK.

As played, on the turn, I'd bet 2/3 pot after he checks.

Also, how many of you re-raise this pre-flop?

AllTheCheese · #3 11-10-2007, 01:31 PM

Raising flop is trash. If you're calling QQ preflop, call down is correct here.

PokerFun007 · #4 11-10-2007, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising flop is trash. If you're calling QQ preflop, call down is correct here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is raising flop "trash?"

AllTheCheese · #5 11-10-2007, 01:40 PM

Sorry if that sounded harsh. It wasn't directed at your post (I hadn't read it until after).

Villain is 16/7 and raised UTG, right? So, let's give him a range of AQ+ and 77+ let's say. Fair? So we call and he makes a standard c-bet. Suppose we raise. Typically, 77, 88, 99, AQ-AK fold right? We have all those hands in very bad shape, why would we want them to fold? Now, the hands he calls with, TT+, all have us in really bad shape (except for Jacks). So by raising, we narrow his range down to a range that beats us and by calling we allow him to bluff subsequent streets with worse hands.

acseif · #6 11-10-2007, 02:14 PM

I re-pop a 16/7 here 100% of the time.

NL__Fool · #7 11-10-2007, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how many of you re-raise this pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time

Albert Moulton · #8 11-10-2007, 02:33 PM

I usually reraise preflop and fold if a tight, 100bb opponent pushes.

His pfr is 7%, but he's raising UTG. If he's a little tighter UTG, a 5% pfr range is something like this: TT+,AJs+,AQo+. He might also be raising for deception with a hand like 78s occasionally.

A preflop reraise to $12 does a couple of good things for you.

First, it minimizes the chance that players behind you will call, allowing you to isolate the preflop raiser and play heads up with position post-flop. That is much better than having to play in MP with 2 callers behind you, for example. You lucked out in the OP when you got "4 folds" behind.

Second, it frequently flushes AA and KK out of the bushes. Many players don't like to just call KK-AA to a pfrr OOP. They 4-bet or push. Vs. those guys you can fold to the 4-bet if you don't have good odds to play for set value, and you avoid paying a lot more post flop when the flop is all low cards and your opponent keeps betting into you. This is more true at FR than 6-max. At 6-max 3-betting and 4-betting ranges get so wide in a 100bb game that you may have to push QQ preflop a lot. But at FR vs a UTG raiser who 4-bets big, you are usually facing KK-AA.

Third, if you reraise to $12 and get called, then the pot is ~$25 giving you an SPR of 4 with good position post flop. That is still big enough to have some play post-flop, but not so big that you would have given speculative hands like 78s good implied odds to call the preflop reraise. So, your plan once your reraise is called is to proceed with caution post flop unless you flop top set. In general, you will want to get to show down without stacking off to an overpair or better while not being so weak that you let yourself get bluffed off a better hand. However, it is generally unlikely that most FR villains will bluff a lot OOP post-flop once you reraised preflop. So, if villain shows an interest in playing for stacks, then QQ is usually no good, especially with an A, K, J, or T on the flop (cards that give likely raise/call hands a set).

If you had reraised preflop, then calling a donk bet, checking the turn, and calling a river bet would have been an OK line.

But, as played for a call preflop, the OP still looks OK. I don't see a need to raise his flop continuation bet since you are way ahead of missed overcards and JJ, and you are way behind KK-AA and TT. The turn check is OK because you are still WA/WB and the only draw you need to worry about is the backdoor flush draw. You certainly don't want to run into a stack-a-donk line where villain check-raises. Also, your check on the turn might induce a bluff from AK/AQ on a blank river. Keep in mind, however, that failing to bet the turn to make AK, for example, fold will occasionally leave you facing an ace on the river coupled with a bet from villain that may or may not be a bluff. But, that's the risk you take with a turn check, and it's an acceptable risk if you think villain will bluff at blank rivers with missed high cards.

Calling the river is good since your turn check might have induced bluffs from missed overcards, and raising probably only gets called by better hands.

Basically, you took a passive line post flop to play for a nice, small, controlled pot with your overpair. And other than reraising preflop, I think the rest of the line is OK.

PokerFun007 · #9 11-10-2007, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop to see where you are at in this hand. If he shoves, then I'd probably fold. A flat call looks like AK more than AA or KK.

As played, on the turn, I'd bet 2/3 pot after he checks.

Also, how many of you re-raise this pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how wrong I was on this...I learned stuff... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Albert Moulton · #10 11-10-2007, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop to see where you are at in this hand. If he shoves, then I'd probably fold. A flat call looks like AK more than AA or KK.

As played, on the turn, I'd bet 2/3 pot after he checks.

Also, how many of you re-raise this pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how wrong I was on this...I learned stuff... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

In a WAWB situation I don't like raising on the flop just to "see where I'm at." And if you did raise the flop bet, a flat call from villain would look a lot more like AA-KK worried about a set, or TT trying not to scare you off, much more than AK hoping to spike a miracle 6-outer. AK/AQ probably fold to a raise more often than push or call.

If you want JJ and AK/AQ to stick around and possibly either make or call a river bet, then calling the cb and checking the turn is fine.

Reraising preflop to "see where you are at" as well as to isolate the preflop raiser is much better than raising the flop bet.