I was thinking about that Schneids 44 hand....

Tryptamean · #1 10-07-2007, 03:47 AM

Normally, I would be content to c/c my way to showdown in this spot. But after thinking about the 44 hand by Schneids, this seems very much superior. Both opponents look kind of taggy in a small sample. I guess my plan would be to peel if button 3bets and see if he takes a free river, otherwise fold. Or, b/f the turn they both call.

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero raises

hoppscot22 · #2 10-07-2007, 05:04 AM

i like

Nietzsche · #3 10-07-2007, 01:31 PM

Why not partner up with button to get BB out on the flop already, i.e. donk the flop? The way you played it you are going to be in a tough spot on the turn in a bloated pot.

mplspoker · #4 10-07-2007, 02:35 PM

check raise flop don't leave hand unless ace or king hits and you get raised

dangerfish · #5 10-07-2007, 05:27 PM

I donk more than most in general and this is a spot I would frequently donk rather than c-raise. The reason I don't c-raise often in these spots is I don't want to create a big pot. I also do this with some big hands as well so it does blend with my overall play.

Tryptamean · #6 10-07-2007, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not partner up with button to get BB out on the flop already, i.e. donk the flop? The way you played it you are going to be in a tough spot on the turn in a bloated pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF I donk, I don't know if I can trust him to raise hands like AK here. Some tags really hate donk bets and spite raise you, and sometimes he might raise and check turn for a cheap showdown. However, the majority of the time I will get raised when I'm beat and called when I'm ahead.

I don't think I will be in a tough spot if I get raised on the turn. The whole point of playing like this with the second player in, is that I should get more reliable information on big streets because my flop play looks very strong. I don't think I can call down profitably if I get raised.

Additional benefit is that nobody seems to fold AK UI on boards like this.

Anyway, this situation is definitely different than Schneids hand because my opponents ranges are much stronger. Still, I think my flop play should get enough respect that I don't get bluffed off my hand often at all.

Tryptamean · #7 10-07-2007, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
check raise flop don't leave hand unless ace or king hits and you get raised

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I really good often enough to call down a turn raise if it bricks off?

Tryptamean · #8 10-07-2007, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I donk more than most in general and this is a spot I would frequently donk rather than c-raise. The reason I don't c-raise often in these spots is I don't want to create a big pot. I also do this with some big hands as well so it does blend with my overall play.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you donk, are you calling down a flop raise HU? Are you betting the turn again if just called? Then fold or calldown? I think it would be a pretty easy value bet on the river if you aren't raised on the flop or turn.

Anyway, I rarely donk bet, and when I do it is almost always because I just made my hand on a scary board.

dangerfish · #9 10-07-2007, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I donk more than most in general and this is a spot I would frequently donk rather than c-raise. The reason I don't c-raise often in these spots is I don't want to create a big pot. I also do this with some big hands as well so it does blend with my overall play.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you donk, are you calling down a flop raise HU? Are you betting the turn again if just called? Then fold or calldown? I think it would be a pretty easy value bet on the river if you aren't raised on the flop or turn.

Anyway, I rarely donk bet, and when I do it is almost always because I just made my hand on a scary board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would value bet atw obviosly if not raised. If raised on the flop I would generally call (assuming HU) and prob call some turns and fold river unimproved. Some players I might even fold to the flop raise. One problem with generalizing play for certain scenarios is it disregards the read too much and I am not talking about stats. When I am playing my best I am pretty locked into how my opponents think and I base a lot of my decisions on what I believe my opponents are capable of doing. Pretty simple concept but how far and accurately you are taking your reads is imo what separates moderate winners and big winners.

dbeckham · #10 10-08-2007, 12:17 PM

I would use a stop and go approach here. I would c/r the flop. Then c/c the turn and go for a value bet on the river regardless if he checks or bets the turn assuming the board is still relatively dry. I have seen stox use this play and it seems pretty effective for me. If u get raised on the river its an auto fold but must of the time they are too timid to raise the river even with hands your beat. So in general I think you get good value when you are ahead and lose near the minimum when you are beat