STTF SNG->cash thread

[GtrHtr]

thats good, he had AJ or JT for sure.

[cakewalk]

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slim: 3betting is pretty miserable here with 77. call and go for a raise of a cbet on a dry board, ideally hitting a set and stacking an overpair.

as played i like betting the flop then shutting down.

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Why is the 3-bet so terrible, other than because I'm going to [censored] up the hand anyway? His UTG and UTG+1 raise hands so far: A4s, QJo, 76s, 54s.

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props for taking note of what he's raising in those positions. that's something i feel not everyone, myself included, take note of. it's really important to have a solid idea of his range. that said i think you get the most value out of hands like 22-99 by just calling his raise and [censored] with villain post flop. 3betting is ok from time to time, but most of the value you get from hands like those is going to come from sets, raising cbets, and floating.

you're going to be raising/floating some amount of the time, so why not make it when you have a pp?

edit: most of the time after you 3bet with hands like 77 and villain doesn't go away, you turn your hand into a bluff or a really bad bluff catcher, that's why i like 3betting LP raisers with these hands, when i'm not likely to get their stack just by calling, and when they're going to fold to my 3bet most of the time.

[futuredoc85]

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slim: 3betting is pretty miserable here with 77. call and go for a raise of a cbet on a dry board, ideally hitting a set and stacking an overpair.

as played i like betting the flop then shutting down.

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Why is the 3-bet so terrible, other than because I'm going to [censored] up the hand anyway? His UTG and UTG+1 raise hands so far: A4s, QJo, 76s, 54s.

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i raise all those hands from UTG sometimes, his 3-bet calling range is going to be more important here than his opening range. also how likely he is to 4-bet bad hands or call and c/r the flop with bad hands since i doubt you can comfortably bet/call any flop w/o a 7 in it

[microbet]

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slim: 3betting is pretty miserable here with 77. call and go for a raise of a cbet on a dry board, ideally hitting a set and stacking an overpair.

as played i like betting the flop then shutting down.

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Why is the 3-bet so terrible, other than because I'm going to [censored] up the hand anyway? His UTG and UTG+1 raise hands so far: A4s, QJo, 76s, 54s.

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With all the possibilities of his ranges for calling the 3 bet and then folding to a cbet - calling the 3 bet and then going broke if he hits the flop at all - and 4 betting; I'm sure you can come up with reasonable ranges that make either calling or 3 betting more +EV.

Against his range, I would guess 3 betting is fine. If he doesn't call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop raising range then 3 betting any two cards will be +EV here. If he does call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop range you really don't have very good implied odds when you hit the set and he's very likely to completely miss the flop.

Of course, it depends, and if he's laggy and good you might not want to be in that spot postflop because you will end up folding the best hand too often in a big pot.

[Jbrochu]

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If he doesn't call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop raising range then 3 betting any two cards will be +EV here. If he does call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop range you really don't have very good implied odds when you hit the set and he's very likely to completely miss the flop.

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I think both of your arguments are good points for not 3-betting with 77 here. Specifically speaking to your first argument, wouldn't we want rather 3-bet with our huge hands and total trash (once in a while as a bluff), but just call with hands like 77 because it sucks to get 4-bet here and have to fold?

[futuredoc85]

i think 3betting 72o>>>3-betting 77 there

[DevinLake]

Slim, medium pocket pairs just have too much value to 3-bet imo. Sure, his opening range is fairly wide, so he'll probably be folding a lot. But, this isn't really an agrument for a hand with as much value as 77. It's a more valuable argument for hands like 78s, or worse that have less showdown value unimproved and don't flop as big as often as pps.

If the guy you are 3-betting is solid, his calling range is pretty narrow here. So, if you get called or 4-bet, 77 no longer has a lot of value. So, you're hoping he folds and 77 is just too strong IMO to just hope he folds.

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If he doesn't call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop raising range then 3 betting any two cards will be +EV here. If he does call 3 bets with a large portion of his preflop range you really don't have very good implied odds when you hit the set and he's very likely to completely miss the flop.

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I think both of your arguments are good points for not 3-betting with 77 here. Specifically speaking to your first argument, wouldn't we want rather 3-bet with our huge hands and total trash (once in a while as a bluff), but just call with hands like 77 because it sucks to get 4-bet here and have to fold?

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If he has a huge range for opening, you won't have good implied odds on your call because most of the time neither of you are going to hit a hand. In that case you have to decide whether he is going to bluff so much that you can call him down profitably or so little that you will get to showdown enough, with some combo of your being able to bluff him.

If you don't like calling and you think 3-betting is +EV, I think having 77 as opposed to 72o will always be better because there will be times that you will both hit and you will be likely to get his stack those times.

If he calls 3 bets with a super-wide range, you will just be able to c-bet and win a lot, whereas if you call you still don't have great implied odds because his range is so wide.

4 betting is another issue. He has a huge opening range, so if you're that worried about being 4-bet then maybe getting it all in with 77 will be fine. If he doesn't 4 bet that much then you can fold.

I think calling is a lot better than 3 betting when you can put the raiser on a narrow range. When you are in the BB, there is a loose-passive limper or two and a total nit in the SB raises and you have 77, calling is the nuts.

Also, if you are playing regulars I think you have to add in some other hands in your cold calling range as cold calling with just medium pockets can be very transparent. Either that or you have to pretend you hit your set often enough when you don't.

Ok, there are lots of ways to play these hands profitably, but I think my main point is that you can't just call and go no-set-no-bet when villian has a wide range of hands.

[futuredoc85]

micro- 77 is a value-call not an implied odds call

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micro- 77 is a value-call not an implied odds call

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For you I'm sure that's true, but I expect w/o impetus a lot of tighter players fold the best hand too often postflop.