Preflop question

[kiddo]

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K7s/K9o are my minimums in this spot. I wish I could add more to this thread but this is one of those spots where I dont know the precise cutoffs, so I make up my own and imagine theyre right.


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is this against a passive 60/0 and a good SB or what u normally raise with against a pretty bad limper?

I would say its a bit 2 tight here, cause even if SB knows u raise light he is out of position 3way so he cant 3bet whatever.

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Other posters said K offsuit leads to trouble... In this spot, if SB 3bets its easier to play Kx then Ax cause Kx got to little showdownvalue, u can fold when u get nothing from the board. And if SB 3bets he will more often have an Ace, so Kx is okay. If SB folds and BB calls there is no need to think u are dominated, so Kx plays fine here. Against limpers range u are obviously way ahead and got a showdown hand that u can play pretty passively if its headsup and u dont hit anything.

[Nietzsche]

I don't get it. You have situation where you have position (and the button) on a 60/0 who is passive postflop with a hand that is slightly ahead of his range and sd worthy. You take the blinds down a lot. How can you afford to pass up this opportunity? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Tryptamean]

Your hand is not that good v his range. I stoved it vs the top 60% of hands and you are a slight dog. You will also not showdown K hi always. The pot will also be multiway sometimes. Its close, but I err on the tight side cuz this hand will often miss and have little showdown value and no backdoor draws.

[Nietzsche]

Versus a loose passive being a slight dog is not a big worry when in position. PokerStove is a deceiving tool to use for preflop calculations, better for evaluating postflop.

Yes, we don't always pick up the blinds but we also don't have to always invest postflop. We have the advantage of choosing when to see the 4th street for free, which they don't.

Also 60 VPIP does not necessarily mean he open limps top 60% here. Remember all those times he folds preflop when there has been a raise before him.

[surfdoc]

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K7s/K9o are my minimums in this spot. I wish I could add more to this thread but this is one of those spots where I dont know the precise cutoffs, so I make up my own and imagine theyre right.


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is this against a passive 60/0 and a good SB or what u normally raise with against a pretty bad limper?

I would say its a bit 2 tight here, cause even if SB knows u raise light he is out of position 3way so he cant 3bet whatever.

*

Other posters said K offsuit leads to trouble... In this spot, if SB 3bets its easier to play Kx then Ax cause Kx got to little showdownvalue, u can fold when u get nothing from the board. And if SB 3bets he will more often have an Ace, so Kx is okay. If SB folds and BB calls there is no need to think u are dominated, so Kx plays fine here. Against limpers range u are obviously way ahead and got a showdown hand that u can play pretty passively if its headsup and u dont hit anything.

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Kiddo. I thunk this is one of your first posts that I really disagree with. You aren't way ahead.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.250% 48.01% 02.24% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
Hand 1: 49.750% 47.51% 02.24% { K8o }

You also won't play it passively. I don't know why people use this argument and that we can see the turn for free. This is just absurd. When you isolate a fish there is essentially always going to be a flop continuation bet. Christ, that is why we are raising..so we can rep whatever is on the flop. If the flop is scary we convince ourselves that it will be scarier for him. Yes, we will get to see the river for one small bet often enough but our hand has so little play in it that getting a free card when the board is AT44 or whatever will do very little for us.

[surfdoc]

I think we need to know a little more about the 60/0 guys postflop tendencies. Does he peel flop and turn light? Does he always play fit or fold on the flop? Does he ever play back at us with air? Some of the loose passives have random aggro postflop tendencies.

[villains_hero]

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Does he peel flop and turn light?

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He will call the flop with overs and with absurd backdoors. With an A he will call many turns and some rivers. Once he has a pair, there will be a showdown.


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Does he ever play back at us with air?

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Definitely not. No Riverdonks on Scarecards, nothing like that. He will only bet (checkraise on the flop) with 2pair or better. In the hands we played he did not bet once.

The times I raised him (with showdown hands only) I bet the flop and proceeded from there. If I wanted to check it down, we did. If I wanted Value I did not always get it. Aces seem to scare him.

Somehow I agree with Kiddo: K7 feels like being way ahead preflop because we will be totally in control postflop. The only bad thing (except the blinds coming in) that can happen is valuebetting a worse hand.

[Nietzsche]

Naturally we bet all flops if we are HU with the LP, and most turns. But if one or both of the blinds come along, there are definitely flops where it is better to take a free card with this hand.

[Leader]

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there are definitely flops where it is better to take a free card with this hand.

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Just for fun, what would you do on these flops against a the limper and one of the blinds:

QhTh8d
Th9h5c
Jc6c5c(no FD for us)
4c3d2s
AhQh9h(no FD for us)

[Nietzsche]

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there are definitely flops where it is better to take a free card with this hand.

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Just for fun, what would you do on these flops against a the limper and one of the blinds:

QhTh8d
Th9h5c
Jc6c5c(no FD for us)
4c3d2s
AhQh9h(no FD for us)

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Assuming the player in the blinds is decent it is a significant mistake to bet the first flop imo. I'd also pass on the second and third against most players. The last two must always be bet imo.