What is a Fair Rake?

[DeadMoneyWalking]

We've had lot's of discussion on what rake is beatable, but has anyone guessed at what a fair rake is for a cardroom?
Does it vary by location?

By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.

For simplicity, assume the room has only small and medium stakes nlhe and lhe games.

[Phat Mack]

This is an interesting question, but I'm not sure it is answerable. Overhead varies greatly from locale to locale.

I've beaten backroom games with rakes that would give our California posters heart attacks, but 99% of these games whithered and died.

I guess the only answer is: whatever the market will bear.

[Max Raker]

Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

[EWillers]

Clearly, in the west, whatever the market will bear is "fair". That will always be the best (if not most helpful) answer.

I think it's an interesting question for the Vegas market in particular (though I'm sure other markets are in similar circumstances).

I had always (at least since the current boom--since around 2002) heard (total 2nd hand rumour, but makes sense) that pretty much every card room along the strip (save the Bellagio) is pretty much a loss-leader (and the B isn't just rakin' it in hand over fist).

If it's the case that many houses only open up card rooms because they're a full service property and one of the things full service properties are sposed to have these days is a card room; if that's the case, then the question as to a "fair" rake kinda takes on a different light.

I think if that's the situation, one could make a pretty good case that fair could be defined as anything less than unconscionable. Basically, this is a situation where the seller is only offering the product because a sizeable number of their consumers desires it. The seller will never make as much off of this product as it does off of other, but provides it nontheless so the consumer will not choose a different property.

[ QUOTE ]
By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree.

If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute.

[canis582]

$0.50 per hand.

[Poshua]

What is a meaningless question?

[Mr. AtlanticCity]

1% up to $1 on all games, regardless of limits.

[DeadMoneyWalking]

[ QUOTE ]
Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players are assuming a lot of risk too. I think it should be lower. If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

[Poshua]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also along these lines, I have always wondered how much more rake I should be willing to pay if the room is underground. I think it is fair for them to charge more since they are taking a larger risk than a legal room.

[/ QUOTE ]

The players are assuming a lot of risk too. I think it should be lower. If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both the players and the operators face bigger risks in a black market game. The former reduces demand, the latter reduces supply. The effect on price (rake) could be either way, depending on which effect is more important.

In practice, my understanding is that rake is indeed generally higher at underground games. This matches my intuition, since the increase in risk assumed by the players (loss of cash on hand due to robbery/raid, very low risk of actual legal trouble) strikes me as less important than the increase in risk assumed by the operators (loss of cash on hand due to robbery, loss of all proceeds from business due to civil forfeiture, significant risk of going to jail).

[EWillers]

[ QUOTE ]
If one had a choice between an underground and a B&M, what would make one prefer the club?

[/ QUOTE ]

Massive, and I mean like prehistoricly large, donkeys.