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#11
11-21-2007, 12:07 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, in the west, whatever the market will bear is "fair". That will always be the best (if not most helpful) answer. I think it's an interesting question for the Vegas market in particular (though I'm sure other markets are in similar circumstances). I had always (at least since the current boom--since around 2002) heard (total 2nd hand rumour, but makes sense) that pretty much every card room along the strip (save the Bellagio) is pretty much a loss-leader (and the B isn't just rakin' it in hand over fist). [/ QUOTE ] Foxwoods in my area, certainly turns a profit. They have the advantage of being a monopoly. Of course, staff assures us it doesn't match the other gaming revenue. [ QUOTE ] If it's the case that many houses only open up card rooms because they're a full service property and one of the things full service properties are sposed to have these days is a card room; if that's the case, then the question as to a "fair" rake kinda takes on a different light. I think if that's the situation, one could make a pretty good case that fair could be defined as anything less than unconscionable. Basically, this is a situation where the seller is only offering the product because a sizeable number of their consumers desires it. The seller will never make as much off of this product as it does off of other, but provides it nontheless so the consumer will not choose a different property. [/ QUOTE ] I suppose it changes if we look at it that way. You could even go as far to say the room should be rake free if it is just a loss leader. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker. [/ QUOTE ] If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree. If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute. [/ QUOTE ] Why? It read just fine to me. 
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#12
11-21-2007, 12:23 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
Why should a fair rake necessarily be a beatable rake? I sometimes play in a room which spreads 2/4 LHE. For people playing at those stakes, I don't really care if they are playing at an unbeatable rake, I just want the rake to be low enough to allow the players to come out a winner some of the time so they move up to 3/6 where they might go on a rush to move up again or dump their winnings to someone who will move up.
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#13
11-21-2007, 05:01 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
Why should a fair rake necessarily be a beatable rake? I sometimes play in a room which spreads 2/4 LHE. For people playing at those stakes, I don't really care if they are playing at an unbeatable rake, I just want the rake to be low enough to allow the players to come out a winner some of the time so they move up to 3/6 where they might go on a rush to move up again or dump their winnings to someone who will move up. [/ QUOTE ] That's the intersting thing about inflation. It wouldn't matter if the stakes were also raised.
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#14
11-21-2007, 07:11 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
$1 per pot. About $30 an hour coming off the table is fair.
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#15
11-21-2007, 07:15 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair.
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#16
11-21-2007, 10:18 AM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair. [/ QUOTE ] I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so.
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#17
11-21-2007, 12:21 PM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
By fair I mean enough for the room to pay its employees a living wage and turn a profit. And low enough that good players can still win at poker. [ QUOTE ] If this is offered as your opinion on how to define "fair", ok. I disagree. If this is a parameter as to how you want "fair" defined in the discussion on this thread, then disregard all I have to contribute. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why? It read just fine to me. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] It wasn't clear to me what the goal of the thread was to be. 1) "Fair" will be defined as "x". Solve for y (where y is a $). 2) What is the nature of "fair" as it relates to the rake in a cardroom. Given that definition, what would a "fair" rake be?
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#18
11-21-2007, 06:17 PM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair. [/ QUOTE ] I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so. [/ QUOTE ] In some markets, the casino lobby pushes through laws that ban playing poker in home games. Since they have secured a monopoly for themselves then they should have to make it fair. Whether they do or not is another issue.
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#19
11-21-2007, 07:04 PM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
I always bought into the 'loss leader' crap. Then I started thinking...
How much money does a $10 blackjack table make? Assuming a huge 2% house edge and 6 people at the table, 80 hands per hour (estimating), gives us $96 per hour this table makes in EV for the casino. Add to the fact that poker is 0 risk to the casino (poker cheaters cheat each other, not the casino), these $5+$1 rakes at 30 hands/hour is awful. Dealers dont get $1 tip after I win a $15 hand at blackjack either. I'm going to go riot now, who's with me!!!!
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#20
11-21-2007, 07:10 PM
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Re: What is a Fair Rake?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Considering minimum wage is like $6.50 an hour, i think $3 per hour per person is fair. [/ QUOTE ] I think the casino has quite a few more costs than just the dealer's salary. Floorpeople, security, management, heating & A/C, taxes, electricity, cards, chip runners, cage workers, etc...plus, they also "need" to turn a profit, or else, why would they be there in the first place? To set up a "fair" game for you & me??? I don't think so. [/ QUOTE ] In some markets, the casino lobby pushes through laws that ban playing poker in home games. Since they have secured a monopoly for themselves then they should have to make it fair. Whether they do or not is another issue. [/ QUOTE ] Can you give me one instance of poker home games becoming illegal only after the legalization of casino poker?
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